How Old is Old? The Anthony Berkeley Version

The Top Story Murder by Anthony Berkeley

published 1931

 

 



****This will be the last post for a couple of weeks, as I am taking a holiday. 
I will be back!****

I was in two minds on whether to do a blogpost on this one, and the main reason to do so is to put a line in the sand. It is often very noticeable that GA authors, very much including women, are more than ready to dismiss women as ‘old’ or very old at quite remarkably early ages. Ngaio Marsh is particularly prone to this.

In this book we hear

‘Old woman been done in’ and later she is described as  ‘a most unpleasing old person’

And?

‘Age about forty-eight.’

So there’s the benchmark. Can anyone come up with a worse example? Please tell me any you find.

There were other reasons why I did not love this book, which I found a dull and unconvincing procedural with the strange addition of Roger Sheringham, anchorman for an earlier post:

Annoying Detectives - a list

The murder happens in a small block of flats off the Euston Rd in London, and the victim is shown as having a squalid and rather bleak life.

There is a whole theory that burglars always have their own way of working, and that by cross-checking your burglars with your events you can spot the culprit. So here comes ‘Detective-Inspector Beach, who specialised in this type of crime, burglary in flats’. Then there is a lot of chasing after alibis and suchlike, and sudden changing decisions about the time of the crime. More and more details are piled on to make the culprit an awful and sordid person (not criminal, just her personal habits). And there is the usual proving of Roger S to be completely wrong.

A couple of things save the story. Roger meets the niece of the dead woman, Stella, and ends up employing her as his secretary. They have an unusual and very enjoyable relationship – not at all sure what they make of each other, though it is clear that Stella admirably has no time for many of Roger’s ridiculous ways.

In pursuit of the investigation, Roger and Stella go clothes shopping, to try to reach conclusions about the woman in the shop, a possible suspect. They are acting parts: Stella a young woman on the make, aiming at refinement, Roger her American sugar daddy.

I love a view of a 1930s dress shop of a certain kind:

[The manageress] was coming towards them, a professional smile on her lips. She wore a black dress, and with her tall figure and erect carriage looked really distinguished. ‘You wish to see some afternoon dresses?’ she said. Roger noticed that she did not add the customary ‘modom’; nor did she offer him more than a fleeting glance…

 ‘Ay shall want a dress, and a hat to wear with it, yes.’ ‘Say, don’t forget the other trimmings too, baby,’ Roger put in. ‘I guess we’ll want some stockings for the lady too, miss, and some gloves, and—’

‘That will do, Hannibal,’ said Miss Barnett. Mrs. Ennismore Smith turned to the pale-haired assistant who had followed her. ‘Miss Hall, run upstairs and get that beige lace and the jade peau de soie, please.’

 


Though this storyline becomes quite uncomfortable when Roger decides to provoke the manageress to anger, which he and Stella do in a very horrible & humiliating way. The manageress throws them out, and they feel bad about it afterwards, but that doesn’t really make it OK. It’s a pity because it leaves a bad taste after what would otherwise be an enjoyable scene.

There is also one of those odd references to public school ways, all too prevalent in Golden Age detective stories. I expected better of Anthony Berkeley, but here it is:

The solitary question he had put to Ennismore Smith last Tuesday had not proved irrelevant after all. It was a large point that Ennismore Smith had been to a public school. For the kind of thing one really learns at a public school is not the capes of Africa (when one is never in one’s life going to Africa), but far more practical things, such as that one must never borrow money from a woman (because one certainly is going to be hard up earlier or, more unfortunately, later); and that even if one does sink to that, there is still one thing that remains simply impossible even to contemplate, and that is to borrow money from a woman whom one knows intimately.

 

This is pointless and irrelevant and rather cringe-y, but also it is surely wholly untrue? It is contradicted everywhere.

[Jane Austen’s Anne Elliot says “if you please, no reference to examples in books”. But, Jane, I could give you so many examples….]

(see another recent post for more public school propaganda)

Stella ends up with a midnight blue dress, a new  hat and various other accessories. The top picture seems to do a reasonable job of that.

The photo of modelling is much grander than what Roger and Stella were off finding, but when you read the caption you will see why I had to use it:

“Group of women modelling different styles of undergarments and dresses, apparently for different body types. The platforms read: Type BH (Big Hip); Type SB (Sway Back); Type BA (Big? Abdomen); Type A (Average); Type SBW (Short Below Waist). The women are posed on and around a stage in a hall”

 

Fashion models parading a number of styles of dresses and … | Flickr



Comments

  1. Olivia Manning apparently put the line between middle age and old age as 45. In The doves of Venus the heroine is young poor and shabbily dressed and falls for a cad who preys on young women " ...extreme elegance in a women was repellent to him, invariably turning his thoughts to the mortal end of the fkesh beneath" there are many examples of this in the book which is chilling in many ways but on the bright side is very good on clothes and no-one is killed.

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    1. I read this book many many years ago, fascinated by the fact that one character is allegedly based on Stevie Smith. I wasn't noting clothes at the time! I think I found it quite miserable, though I have always remembered the Smith-esque character saying that when she went to bed with her boyfriend they put their glasses side by side on the shelf.
      Chambers dictionary at one time had the definition of middle-age include this: 'variously reckoned according to the age of the reckoner'

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    2. Wilmet Forsyth turns 33 on the first page of Barbara Pym’s A Glass of Blessings - 18 October, St Luke’s day - and thinks of herself (and of her friend Rowena who is a similar age) as a young woman. No indication that Barbara Pym disagrees with her, but there’s a hint that middle-age is on the horizon; Wilmet and her mother-in-law discuss the age at which it has to be acknowledged that a promising young man is a promising young man no longer, and IIRC settle on 35.

      Sovay

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    3. At least it makes a change to have men being subject to rules.
      I must say I like the idea of a discussion on when people stop being 'promising'

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    4. I love Chambers! My mother’s edition defined “éclair” as a cake, “long in shape, but short in duration”. A friend has for decades defined middle age as “15 years older than I am”. Zoe

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    5. Yes I love it, and have an old edition with many of the un-serious definitions in. When it defined rhetorical devices, it would silently include an example of the device in the definition

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  2. I have just read this blog post and Google immediately recommended Teresa Fogarty's book No little flower about her life after leaving a convent and finding live at the age of 60....strangely, I won't be following up this suggestion. JanW

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    1. Hilarious! I have a secret soft spot for books about nuns leaving convents, so perhaps I will look it up. None can ever compete with the title of the Monica Baldwin book on this: I Leap Over the Wall

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    2. I did read I leap over the wall and enjoyed it very much. I was impressed that her first action after leaving the convent was to buy lipstick and cigrarettes. In certain books these choices would be a clear indication of a very different mode of life. JanW

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    3. I was struck by her list of things she knew nothing about, including jazz & the unknown soldier

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  3. Oh dear ... don't think I will embarking on this one ... As regards useless detectives, I watched an episode of Inspector Morse last night. Much is made of the idea that a mistake was made in a cold case and only Morse with his superior skills is thinking on the right lines, ignoring orders from his boss to follow leads, and so on. Yet he gets it all wrong too! A really competent police force would have tied it all up in about 10 minutes of screen time.

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  4. That was Chrissie

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    1. That made me laugh! Yes, some of these plots don't stand up to inspection. I always thought the TV Morse's would have made good one hour programmes with the removal of an unnecessary subplot or red herring - all of them.

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  5. All the indications are that the kind of thing one really learns at a public school is not the capes of Africa, but that regardless of any behaviour or characteristics of one’s own, from the merely unpleasant to the downright criminal, one is nevertheless unquestionably superior to anyone who has NOT been to a public school.

    I think I’ll be giving this one a miss, though the dress shop is tempting. Is the omission of “Modom” a moral judgment on the manageress’s part?

    Sovay

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    1. A very good description!
      Yes, the omission is definitely meant to be insulting.

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    2. Sophie Stanton-Lacy, the title character of Georgette Heyer’s The Grand Sophy comes up against the “mustn’t borrow money from a woman” public-school convention, much to her exasperation, when trying to extricate a young male cousin from a financial predicament (unfortunately involving a painfully of-its-time encounter with a stereotypical moneylender).

      Sovay

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    3. What about brothers and sisters? Last year I did two books where it was discussed. In Fanny Burney's Camilla, the boy was a selfish pig, quite ready to ruin his sisters' lives. No qualms. In a Gladys Mitchell book, we get this: 'Boys always have borrowed money from their sisters... and jolly glad the sisters are, too, usually.’

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    4. In Trollope's masterpiece The Way We Live Now, the cad Felix is always being bailed out of financial difficulties by his mother who is not that well-off to begin with! And of course he tries to marry a rich girl. On the other side of the coin, there are the GA heroes who won't marry the rich heroine just because she IS rich.

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    5. I think Sovay's description of the lessons learned at public schools is much better than Berkeley's!

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    6. The career of Captain Grimes as described at the beginning of Decline and Fall is the best illustration of the advantages of being a public school man. Evelyn Waugh was being satirical, but perhaps he approved to some extent.

      Also, in Michael Gilbert's Death in Captivity, the British officers in the Italian POW camp judge their ability to trust a new prisoner on whether or not any of them went to school with him. There seems to be no possibility that any officer would not be a public school man.

      Nerys

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    7. I think Roger Allen & I would both like to bring in Saki's The Unbearable Bassington: a bad lot but haunting & melancholy.
      Also Flashman!

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    9. Saki - or, rather Reginald, said more: “To have reached thirty,” said Reginald, “is to have failed in life.”
      Another of his young men points out that he can't twenty until his mother is thirty eight (ages not exact)

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    10. There's also that brilliant parody of Housman:
      What, still alive at twenty-two,

      A clean, upstanding chap like you?

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    11. This reminded me of one of Patricia Wentworth's vampire mothers - Mrs Graham in The Gazebo - reluctantly acknowledging to herself that she can't knock any more years off her age whilst she has a grown-up daughter around. It doesn't help that the daughter, due to the dog's life she leads at her mother's beck and call, looks as if she's in her thirties.

      Sovay

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    12. Oh yes, I was trying to remember who that was, & of course you remembered for me

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    13. Re: brothers borrowing from sisters – I suspect in the past many sisters wouldn’t have been worth applying to simply because they would have had little or nothing of their own to lend, and might have been expected to account for what they spent their dress allowance or pin money on. And an upper crust Victorian brother might well hesitate to admit to his sister eg that he’d got his Oxford landlady’s daughter pregnant and needed to pay her off. That would change over time though - something like this was the issue in the Gladys Mitchell you refer to (Come Away, Death, from the 1930s) and the brother in that case clearly felt no such inhibition.

      Which reminds me of Georgette Heyer’s No Wind of Blame, mentioned recently by Marty, where there’s much discussion of the unseemliness of Wally Carter using his rich wife’s money to pay off his pregnant girlfriend. Wally’s view is that this issue would never have come up if Ermyntrude had just done the right thing by making over a big chunk of her capital to him when they married, so that he could spend what he liked without having to apply to her …

      Sovay

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    14. There’s also much discussion among the local nobs in No Wind of Blame about whether to admit Ermyntrude – a kind, generous and hospitable woman, but an ex-chorus girl and certainly not from the top drawer – to their social circle. No such discussion IIRC about her husband Wally, who is an irresponsible, dishonest, adulterous idler, so presumably he went to the right kind of school and is automatically acceptable.

      Sovay

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    15. Sovay - I got the impression that Wally was regarded by the older Derings as having no redeeming features (husband made it clear he disliked Wally more and the wife thinking of him as dreadful) , while Ermyntrude was basically a kind soul and "being no fool", although "common" and "impossible."

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    16. I’ll have to re-read too - my recollection was that although the Derings didn’t much like Wally they still regarded him as part of their world, whereas Ermyntrude was “that damned common woman”, but I may be misremembering. I’m sure they only accept her invitation to dinner because she’s rich and they plan to get a large donation to a local charity out of her.

      Sovay

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    17. Quite agree that the dinner invitation was only because of her money (and that's before we get on to the difference in Mrs Dering's attitudes towards the ward and the daughter), but for me it came over more as regarding her as a nice woman ( but not one of us) against Wally also being not one of us but disliked (Mr Dering says "that fellow Carter I bar" ). Certainly, Mary had no illusions about Mr Dering's attitude to Wally and knows that people "rather disliked him."
      Thinking about it, between the Ermytrude and Vicky together take on the role often played by the outrageous and witty man in other Heyer books. I also rather enjoy the promotion of Hemingway to Inspector

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    18. Ermyntrude reminded me a little of the rich lady in some O Douglas books--Mrs Jackson maybe? Heyer wrote the character for comic effect but was she actually less condescending than O Douglas was? I can't decide.

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    19. Whatever Heyer intended, she made Ermyntrude likeable - a kind, generous, affectionate woman who would most likely have given generously to the local hospital, if asked, even without the bribe of social acceptance. Though I do wonder how she (the ex chorus girl) and her first husband (the posh big game hunter) managed to make a go of their marriage …

      Sovay

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    20. Yes, I see what you mean about Mrs Jackson - they are both great characters.
      Interesting question about condescension.
      I wonder if both writers made them more attractive than they realized.
      Other people's marriages always fascinating - and then, perfect matches, with shared backgrounds and interests, often don't work. Chemistry is a mystery

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    21. True about marriage - also, Geoffrey Fanshawe must often have been away in the wilds of Africa and Asia, doing his big game hunting, and I suspect Ermyntrude didn’t go with him, so absence probably made the heart grow fonder …

      Another thing I wonder is how likeable Heyer meant Mary to be. Nominally she’s the young heroine, but she comes across as a prig and a bore in comparison with Vicky.

      Sovay

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    22. Ermyntrude seems to me to be more spirited than Mrs Jackson as I recall her.. I looked up a CiB post on an O Douglas book in which a quote described Mrs J as "pathetic" and I don't think that word would apply to Ermyntrude! She'd be incensed at the mere suggestion. I think Vicki would make any "sensible" young woman look dull by comparison, and Mary struck me as almost-but-not-quite a doormat, putting up with Wally all those years. Not among Heyer's more memorable heroines IMO.

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    23. I like to think the Fanshawe marriage was a happy one. Besides, it seems to have been a real-life trope, as well as a literary one, for dancers and actresses to marry wealthy or prominent men. Didn't Fred Astaire's sister marry a duke, which was why he was free to team up with Ginger in the RKO movies? That's before we get on to John Profumo and Ludovic Kennedy.
      On re-reading, I wonder whether "No Wind Of Blame" was a more subversive book than it seemed at first glance.
      Spoilers following, though we have discussed so much already that any reader must know that here be dragons.
      Setting up the ward as the obvious romantic heroine and then pulling bait and switch on the readers was unexpected. Still, it was perhaps just reversing what she did in other books when the irritating but witty hero realised that the sensible woman of his own age was a better match for him than the flibbertigibbet. The ward did get a consolation prize, and it was plausible to me that it would be a better match for her than the younger man. By the way, I would defend her character. I felt her descriptions of the uncertainties while growing up made her preference for respectability and predictability an admirably rational choice. I also got the impression that her attitude to Wally was always one of affection (albeit exasperated at times).
      The Derings being happy that their son was going to marry the eccentric heiress who seems to come from the Robbie Wickham end of the Bertie Wooster fiancés rather than the sensible, but penniless woman
      There was also perhaps a suggestion that sooner or later the faithful admirer of Ermyntrude could become her third husband

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    24. Very much enjoying all this discussion, and looking forward to the moment when I can re=read it and then read all this again. (I am deep in the throes of another project with a deadline...)
      Vicky is the most wonderful character. But I thought Mary held her own. There is a distinct role in quite a few of Heyer's Regency romances of the sensible slightly older lady who could be seen as boring but isn't eg The Quiet Gentleman, and she fits in well with them.

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    25. I just didn't think Mary had enough spirit. I can understand her wanting a "safe" life after years with Wally, and I like that she's level-headed and practical. She does suffer in comparison in comparison with Vicky, who seems to make everyone else fade into the background! Maybe I was thrown off by the "bait-and-switch" of the heroines and wanted Mary to be more assertive. She's certainly not the doormat that Cousin Harry's daughter was, but when I think of how some other heroines (say, Flora Poste) would have handled Wally, Mary seems too passive.

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    26. Just watched the Inspector Alleyn tv adaptation of Final Curtain, about the murder of an old ham actor. He was planning to marry a chorus girl, who was pretty much ganged-up-on by his family as "common" and "a horror". She wasn't as good-hearted as Ermyntrude but not entirely a bad sort. From what I recall in my reading, it was the families of the potential grooms that objected to the chorus girls, while the gent himself was less snobbish about it, although not always a good judge of character! I'd like to think that Ermyntrude's first husband saw her good qualities as well as her good looks and didn't have a family to make objections, or didn't care about the family's objections. I think Adele Astaire was a special example, she was already quite famous and left "show biz" at a high point in her career. Fred didn't seem to mind so much because he'd been overshadowed by her and wanted to strike out on his own. He wasn't keen to take on another partner, but luckily for the rest of us he finally agreed on Ginger!

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    27. I wonder where Ermyntrude picked up her name? It seems unlikely that it was her birth name.

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    28. AdrianDominic - I’ve been re-reading No Wind of Blame and concluded that I was unfair to Mary - as you say, she has good reason to prefer stability, and it’s not easy to be the calm, sensible one in a household of drama queens. But Vicky’s so much more fun! I still have the impression that Wally, however dislikeable and even disreputable he may be personally, is from the “right” background - he reminds me of Nick Jenkins’ Uncle Giles (from Anthony Powell’s Dance to the Music of Time) in that respect. Whereas there’s a throwaway comment, which I can’t now re-find, to the effect that Ermyntrude’s probable third husband is not quite “one of us”.

      Sovay

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    29. I have now re-read the book, and done a post on it, and come back to re-read all your wonderful comments.
      Some great analyses here. I think the posho marrying someone from the theatre was a very popular trope in books, but also happened in real life, and could be very successful.
      Money and titles went a long way towards easing class consciousness.
      I thought both Mary and Vicky were splendid heroines, though I thought Heyer made Mary a vit too shocked by Vicky 'indecent!' when I thought she would be more tolerant in real life. And she did do the parallel romances very well.
      Altogether a most enjoyable book - as well as provoking such great discussions!

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  6. I've noticed comments about being 'old' in novels, too, Moira. And you're right; what counts as 'old' is , to my mind, not old at all. Funny how that's happened over time. As to this novel, nope, it doesn't spark my interest. The dress shop setting's interesting, but it doesn't sound at all like Berkeley's best...

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    1. I am not giving it a strong recommendation.
      And I am sure you can think of many books with characters who are old/not old...

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  7. A dear departed lady once said she watched the evening news with a story about crime perpetrated against an "elderly" woman, who was her age!.she was quite surprised to find herself described that way!

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    1. Yes! that happens to me too these days

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    2. I saw a cartoon recently with two apparently elderly women and the caption something like "It's strange that we're the same age as old people now".

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    3. I believe originally "elderly" didn't actually mean "very old," it meant something like "old-ish, getting on a bit."
      HelenS

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    4. Words do change their nuance - and of course regional/country differences too

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    5. I found a funny AI phrase while looking up obituaries at work (sounds like fun, right?). A person had passed away "at the age of old"!

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    6. Oh how funny, at least not in doubt of AI

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    7. I remember a birthday card with The Mouse on the front and the message "M-I-C-K-E-Y U R O-L-D"

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    8. Oh cheerily older than most of us!

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    9. I was walking across a hospital parking lot one evening and saw a nurse in scrubs leaving the building. It was about 11pm and my immediate mental response was "shame on the hospital for letting that older lady walk to her car alone at this time of night. She should have an escort"

      She was my age.

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    10. Oh gosh yes, I am rather prone to that myself...

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  8. Not being an expert on ladies undergarments from the 1930s, why does it appear that the model on the far right in the group photos has, uhm, cut outs in her slip around her chest?

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    1. I'm no expert either, but to me it looks like a different color fabric. Maybe there's extra support there? Or maybe padding for flat-chested gals?!

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    2. Tee hee. It does look odd, but close scrutiny of the original suggests Marty is right. Or perhaps she is channeling the future Madonna

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    3. It's looks like there's a flounce in the same colour around the hem, which does suggest that it's part of the design.

      Sovay

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    4. Yes indeed. But not a great look really...

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  9. I like "cringe-y", as if "cringe" was too modern and "cringe-worthy" was too cringe.

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    1. Nice distinction, when we are talking about distinctions....

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  10. Just yesterday, I finished Our Little Life, J.G. Sime's 1921 debut novel. Jessie Georgina Sime was English, though she lived much of her little life in Quebec. Our Little Life is set in a thinly disguised Montreal during the final year of the Great War. It centres on the increasingly complex relationship between Katie McGee, who was brought to Canada as an infant, and more recent immigrant Robert Fulton, a disgruntled Englishman. I would be remiss to not mention that Katie makes her living as a dressmaker, hired by the city's upper-class women to disassemble previous years' gowns so as to use their fabrics for the coming season.

    Katie is a forty-six-year-old spinster (I read this novel for Spinster September). Robert's age is never disclosed, though the reader is told that he is younger.

    Getting to the point, I found this passage devastating:

    He thought of her as someone divided from him by a mountain of years, and to say that he never dreamed of scaling that mountain of years by the ladder of love is to put it insufficiently. Robert Fulton never dreamed of Miss McGee as an object of love — in the sense of sex-love. He was not very old himself; he was young for his years; it never occurred to him that a woman getting on for fifty (which was the way he would have sized up poor Miss McGee had he sized her up at all) would be thinking of love. Robert regarded fifty as "old" for a woman — as, in a sense, it is. He liked Miss McGee; he was even getting fond of her, but he wasn't interested in her. She couldn't interest him physically and she didn't happen to mentally either, and she certainly was not a target for any romantic ideas in the world. She was just a kind elderly thing of no particular sex, who had held out a hand to him when he was bitterly in need of a hand being held out. He took the hand exactly as if it had been a man's hand, and held it; and he was as unconscious that there was any sex connected with the holding of it as if it had been the hand of — a unicorn.

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    1. Sadly, Robert and the author do have a point about fifty being regarded as “old” for a woman, even now! Double standards still prevail in that respect. It’s a shame the author doesn’t give Robert’s age – his attitude would be understandable if he were in his twenties, not so if he’s forty.

      I’m very interested in the upper-class women having their old clothes taken apart and re-made – is there any indication whether this is a wartime economy measure, or whether they have always done so? In theory, upper-class English women passed on their old clothes to their ladies’ maid or to poor relations, or if slightly further down the economic scale, sold them to dealers; though I do recall the Provincial Lady, in the early 1930s, having Mademoiselle re-model one of her two evening dresses for a new look.

      Sovay

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    2. During one of his evenings with Katie, Robert shares that it is his birthday. Katie responds as expected:

      "Why in thunder didn't ye tell me?" she went on reproachfully. "I'd 'a' had a birth-
      day koind of a meal fer ye."

      What's interesting is that Katie herself has a birthday in the novel - it ends with her at forty-seven - though it would seem she mentions this to no one.

      Regarding Richard's age, I settled on him being just north of thirty. He'd attended Cambridge, had travelled widely, had settled in Canada, had lost his money, had tried his hand at teaching, and appears to have been working behind the cheese counter for at least a few years.

      My wife studied fashion in Montreal and worked as a clothing designer for three decades. Much of what I know of style comes from her. Her studies included fashion history. She knew of Katie's occupation. Not uncommon in the early 1900s, it had much to do with the high quality and high costs of certain fabrics and rapidly changes in silhouettes, sleeves, and décolletage.

      I wonder how long it lasted.

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    3. That's quite a busy past for Robert - early-mid 30s sounds about right.

      Based on the transcription of her speech by the author, I'd have put Katie down as a pirate rather than a dressmaker!

      Sovay

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    4. You comment raised a smile. Given that Katie was an infant when she arrived in Montreal I questioned the accent. I suppose it could be that she was raised in a neigbourhood consisting of Irish immigrants. Even the tenants of the building in which she lives are primarily Irish.

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    5. Im always fascinated by accents, & how they change in immigrant families

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    6. I used to work with a woman who, to my ears, had a Liverpool accent. Accents came up in conversation with her one day, however, and she said she'd never lived anywhere near Liverpool; her parents who were from Ireland (she did tell me which part of Ireland, but I've forgotten) had moved to Burnley (Lancs) before she was born, and to her own ears her accent was similar to theirs. I'd never particularly thought about the Liverpool accent and why it's so distinctive but Northern English modified by Irish makes sense historically.

      Sovay

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    7. Speaking of pirates, Sept 19 is International Talk Like A Pirate Day. Which reminds me of an awful joke: "Why are pirates pirates? Because they arrrrrhh"

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    8. I was just talking to someone while I was away about Lancs accents! We locals can easily distinugish, but it isn't as clearcut to others. 'Generalized Northern', though Liverpool is very distinctive.
      Someone I know received instructions from a friend for making soup, which ended with 'Serve with some hearty bread'. But a rogue space crept in, and it read 'so me hearty', which sounds splendidly pirate.

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  11. Oh my goodness, devastating is right. You hope that wouldnt be a usual view, but very believable.
    It sounds as though its going to be sad. Recommended?

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    1. I very much liked the novel and was pleased to find that it had been returned to print in an academic edition in the 'nineties. That edition is still in print - I suspect it is thirty-year-old copies that are sitting in the publisher's warehouse. Being in the public domain, Our Little Life can also be found at the Internet Archive, Faded Page, and other sources.

      Katie is endearing and her little life is interesting. Her most generous client is a seemingly single young woman named Eileen Martyn. Unlike the others, Miss Martyn, a writer, is interested in Katie's work and life. Is she a stand-in for the author herself? Sime seems to have some understanding of Katie's work:

      Mrs. Barclay seemed to have unearthed all the clothes she had ever had — she was
      one of the older-fashioned kind who preserved everything in case it might "come in useful sometime." Out of the mess three gowns were segregated on the couch of the work-room: and while Miss McGee was at breakfast (with the family) Mrs. Barclay had tried to recall to her memory the three gowns in succession, and how exquisite each had been. And Miss McGee had gone steadily on with her breakfast, while Mr. Barclay from the head of the table (a great favorite of Miss McGee's and "a thorough gen'leman as ever lived") had repeatedly said, "Mother, mother, get on with your breakfast, and talk of the
      gowns when ye've finished yer meal."

      All day long Miss McGee had sat ripping the gowns. She knew that ripping was not the worst of it for, when they were ripped, she had to make them up into one "new" gown: and
      how she was to do it she did not know. It is work like that that makes the heart sick. and
      how she was to do it she did not know.

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    2. This is all fascinating: thanks so much for sharing with us. I hadn't heard of the book, & I'm sure am not the only one now intending to look it out

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    3. I feel bad for Miss McGee making up new gowns. I'd hoped that she might see it as a challenge to her creativity in a positive way--that she'd have had a "flair" for the work. it doesn't sound that way now. Work that makes the heart sick is an awful way to spend life.

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    4. Any old garment with a fairly complex cut would disassemble into a pile of small, awkwardly shaped pieces - it must have been a real struggle to come up with a new gown that didn’t just look like patchwork. British women in WW2 were encouraged to do the same kind of thing - make two worn dresses into one new one - and the drawings in the instruction leaflets always look quite smart, but I suspect the reality was rather different!

      Sovay

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    5. Marty, I doubt the following will warm the heart but will note that Miss McGee's clients believe she is the best in the business and are loyal customers. Katie had wanted to be a teacher, but hadn't been afforded the education. She fell into her occupation by way for her uncle, a tailor who brought her newly-widowed mother and fatherless children over from Ireland. That said, it's clear that she has a real talent and keen eye when it comes to design. This passed is rather long, but is an interesting observation of a talent that was not afforded opportunity:

      By nature Miss McGee didn't care for dressmaking. She was interested in it. She had the true artist's feeling towards it; possibly, if she had had a better technical training, she might even have liked it. For she had a flair for clothes. Quite extraordinarily she could tell what the fashion was going to be and where any given thing was good "stoyle" or bad. So marked was this sense and so clear her eye for "line" that Mrs. Glassridge herself often condescended to take her to the tailor's or to the smart Importer's where she bought her Paris clothes "so she could have McGee tell the folks." The folks didn't like it — how should they? But the dollar-and-a-half [Katie McGee's daily earnings] Katie McGee "put it over them," as Mrs. Glassridge also said, "every time." She didn't know how she knew: she just knew. Something in her said "Fix that so it cur'rves around," or "Ease there a particle" — and, lo, the effect was attained.
      Had Katie McGee had her chance — had she emerged from a Paris atelier instead of out of a twopenny-halfpenny dress-making stunt in Regalia city — she would have been an artist in clothes: and then she would have liked dressmaking. As it was, this talent of hers was more a sorrow than a pleasure. It told her what ought to be without giving her the power to do the thing herself.

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    6. Georgette Heyer's mystery Duplicate Death has a character who goes to classy houses to mend and/or "remodel" clothing, not quite as complicated as Katie's work but she seems more content with it--she gets meals at the houses and enjoys picking up any gossip going around! She provides an important clue, too.

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    7. I found it odd that Miss McGee clients not only provided breakfast and lunch, but that she eats with the family. These scenes feature three or four times in the novel, without explanation. It is as if the reader is assumed to have knowledge of the occupation.

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    8. Interesting - in Barbara Pym's Some Tame Gazelle (set in the 1930s and in England) the comfortably-off Bede sisters employ a needlewoman who comes for the day, and they give her the same lunch as they're having themselves, but there's no question of her sitting down to it at the same table as them - it's taken in to the sewing room on a tray for her.

      Sovay

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    9. Heyer's needle woman would never dream of sitting down to dine with The Family, it was always a meal on a tray in another room. Perhaps Canadian society was just a bit less rigid in its class distinctions? Or simply friendlier?!

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    10. Good points. I'm far from the first to note that Canada is less Class conscious than the Mother Country. Added to this, I think, is that much of the wealth would have gone back no more than a couple of generations. If memory serves, one of Miss McGee's clients had worked in a tavern before marrying up.

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    11. Yes, with many of the settlers coming from the not-so-privileged classes, there wouldn't have been as much of a superiority complex as the English aristocrats had. The "non-U" attitude wouldn't be so appealing! And there was more of a sense that people could make better lives for themselves, without hitting the ceiling of class-prejudice. I assume the novel was set among English-speaking Canadians? I don't know if the French-Canadians had a more- or less-rigidly structured society than the English?

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    12. The sewing-woman turns up a lot in the fiction we all enjoy, and very crucial class differences. The whole question of where and what she eats is vital...

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    13. But Sovay, if I recall right, in Some Tame Gazelle, the dressmaker's cauliflower cheese wasn't quite the same as the Bede sisters' portions. Somehow some extra meat had crawled in. So awkward....

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    14. Yes, Belinda Bede is mortified - but for Miss Prior the fact that the Bedes give her the same as they’re having themselves is more important than any stray caterpillar. ‘After all, it might just as easily have been you or Miss Harriet that got the unwelcome visitor today’.

      Sovay

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    15. Such a very Barbara Pym incident...

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    16. Marty, Our Little Life is populated by English-speakers, mostly Irish, Scottish, and English immigrants (in that order). Montreal novels of the time, good and bad, are remarkable for ignoring francophones. In this novel, the friendly, fluently bilingual postman is the lone French Canadian . He dies of Spanish Flu. His cheeriness is missed for a few days.

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    17. The first book I bought for myself(by Book Token) was Carbonel by Barbara Sleigh. Rosemary and her mother live in a boarding house , the latter is a seamstress who goes to peoples houses sides to middling sheets and other dull sewing but she gets a tray of the same food as her employer to eat in the sewing room. The Browns lives are transformed when the leader of a theatrical troupe ( wearing good but shabby clothes) at a garden fête offers Mrs B work designing and making costumes. There are many insightful comments on clothes, class, economy etc to the point it reads like a early version of a Clothes in Books bingo card. BTW it is a childrens book with a magic cat, too. I may have missed a bit...JanW

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    18. Brian: very interesting fact about the book.

      Jan W: I thought 'oh I think I read that when I was a child', the name sounded very familiar, but obviously I only saw the book, didn't read it. I would've remembered that! I am very curious now, and have downloaded it. thanks!
      I get occasional weird AI emails saying 'I have been reading your blog and...' offering me services mixing up my themes. As you say, this almost sounds like it has been invented to grab my attention 😀😀😀

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  12. I wonder whether some past references to women being old reflected social attitudes or the age of the author when they were writing. I can recall the late sixties when a lot of women once they became grannies or reached 50, seemed to choose to dress old. The black hat and shapeless black coat of the Grannie in the Giles cartoons seemed to reflect reality. Mind you, it wasn't that different for many men of the same age, although perhaps they passed it off as being distinguished. Not only do we strive to live younger longer, but to dress younger longer.

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    1. Yes, I wonder that too. If I remember correctly, in the earlier Miss Silver books her hair is described as still mostly brown, so she can't have been *that* old (maybe 50s?) but she's firmly treated as elderly by the narrative and the other characters around her (probably not helped by her, ah, "unique" sense of style, haha). On the other hand, one thing I've always appreciated about the books is that Wentworth does have "older" heroines, in their 30s and 40s, fairly often, and also mentions older women being pregnant and having children as if it's normal and unremarkable (her comment in Lonesome Road about knowing a woman of 49 who just delivered twins to shut down Rachel's awful sister, and if you do the math, Rietta March (Randall's wife) has to have been in her mid/late 40s by the time she had both her children since she's 43 in her debut book).

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    2. Yes, if you look at old pictures of crowds or eg church congregations or sports fans they look so very different from us. A lot more serious hats and glasses helping with the aging process. And well done Patricia Wentworth

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    3. I think the film industry is one of the best examples of the "double standard", regarding older performers. Male actors play romantic leads until they're practically doddering, and their leading ladies are rarely even middle-aged. Middle-aged female actors have trouble even finding good roles, unless they can fit into the matronly (or dowager!) roles--forget about romantic leads! It's better now than it used to be (partly thanks to Helen Mirren, I think).

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    4. Re: Miss Silver's age - I set out to read all the Miss Silver books in order at the beginning of this year, getting as far as The Silent Pool, and up to that point her exact age was never given, but based on various references throughout the books I reckon she was most likely born in 1880. This would make her 58 or 59 (depending on when her birthday is) in the summer of 1939, when the action of Danger Point takes place, and in that book she’s described as “elderly”. However in The Chinese Shawl, which I think takes place in January 1941, she’s described as “middle-aged”! She certainly cultivates the “elderly” image in her presentation of herself, though into the 1950s her hair’s still mostly mousy-brown with only a little grey.

      Sovay

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    5. I think Miss Silver cultivates the mousy-and-elderly image because it's good camouflage! Sad to say, in our society senior women tend to not be noticed if they aren't striking in looks or behavior. (See Mrs Bradley!)

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    6. I’m sure you’re right; also Frank Abbott in The Case of William Smith has a theory about how Miss Silver’s High Victorian sitting-room-cum-office supports her business, which applies to her dress and personal appearance too:

      “… it's only just come to me that the thing you conjure with is security. That's what you're putting across. Your pictures, your furniture - they've come down from a settled past. They belong to the time when there practically wasn't an income tax and European wars were just something you read about in The Times.”

      Sovay

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    7. I am fainting with shock ('swooning' perhaps?) at the news that Miss Silver is younger than I am....

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    8. Do you need a fainting-couch?

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    9. Sovay, how right about that feeling of security that Miss Silver seems to bring about, for readers as well as clients! I think that's why the books are great comfort reads, despite the dastardly goings-on. When Miss Silver is there, you know everything will be all right!

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    10. The time to be worried is when Mrs Bradley is younger than you are....

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    11. Yes I need a fainting couch 😀😀😀
      I loved reading Miss Silver during lockdown, she was the perfect reading.
      Somehow, I think Mrs B will keep on getting older, we will never catch up with her.

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    12. I have no doubt I have said this before, but I would love to know how Maud Silver went from being a governess to a detective. Was this why the poisoned caterpillars were so important?
      Alternatively, did she solve a murder while being a governess, which made people reluctant to employ her, as she obviously spotted too much?
      Frankly. I would enjoy an author as good as Leo Bruce having a murder mystery where thinly disguised versions of Miss Silver, Mrs B and Miss Marple got the wrong end of the stick for their own reasons.

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    13. I too thought for years that the Affair of the Poisoned Caterpillars had launched Miss Silver on her new career, but no - it takes place in 1939, just before Danger Point, when she’s been established as a private enquiry agent for around ten years. So it seems likely that she solved a mystery as a governess and realised that she’d found a way out of the scholastic profession which, she says in Lonesome Road, she disliked extremely.

      Sovay

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    14. Given all those series-extensions (Poirot, James Bond, now Miss Marple) you'd think someone could fill in the gap in Miss Silver's career.
      Sovay - I've always been very struck by her saying how much she disliked being a governess, especially considering how fond she is of some of her ex-pupils

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    15. Wentworth makes it clear in more than one book that she was good at being a governess and inspired affection as well as respect from her pupils - so maybe it wasn’t the job in itself she hated. But when she looks back (as she often does) she thinks of the insecurity, financial and otherwise, of depending on poorly-paid work and living in other people’s houses, with a very uncertain future ahead. I think there’s an aging governess in Elizabeth Jane Howard’s Cazalet series who ends up as Miss S feared she would, living in one room on the brink of destitution.

      Sovay

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    16. Isn't it Frank Abbott who calls her Revered Preceptress - a phrase that makes me cringe?
      The later life of the governess depends so much on how she is treated by the families.

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  13. The dress shop section does sound interesting. Does anyone know why the sales ladies (probably the wrong term) in such places said 'Modom' and not 'Madam'?
    Recently I read somewhere that 70 is the new 50...Anne Elliot of course is past her best, having lost her bloom, at twenty-seven!!
    Christine

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    1. Just custom I guess, and an attempt to be posh, not flat vowels . People actually referred to them as 'modom shops'

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  14. Just adding another "old" woman - the queen in Christopher St John Sprigg's , who's presented as ancient, wrinkled, doddering, maybe losing her marbles due to her advanced age; but based on references to her being about to celebrate the 30th anniversary of her coronation and to her having been "no more than a girl" when she came to the throne, she can't be older than mid-fifties.

    Sovay

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    1. And that's Christopher St John Sprigg's Death of a Queen ... not sure where the title went!

      Sovay

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    2. I haven't read that one, and you have made it sound very intriguing. I do like the author, even if he has Views on age...

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  15. On the male side, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Mr.Salteena, an "elderly man of 42", in The Young Visiters.

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    1. I expect nine-year-olds these days would still regard 42 as old. I know I certainly did when I was nine.
      Clare

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    2. Young children are often clueless about age. My sister, babysitting a child of about seven, let them watch TV with her for a bit - a tribute to Julie Walters. The child solemnly announced that JW " must be quite old... Maybe thirty?"
      Same sister was also asked if she had any children, by five-year-olds when she was doing work experience in an infants school, aged 15.
      Susanna

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    3. Yes indeed, children are clueless. 'Older than me' and 'a lot older than me' and 'nearly dead' is about as far as it goes.
      Once, talking with my son, we were working out how old I would be when he reached various ages (useful maths practice you see) and we got to a certain point and I said '....and I will STILL be 35 years older than you' and he said 'No you won't. You'll be dead.'

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    4. Ouch! How old would you have been, if you hadn't been dead? Children and teenagers discussing this topic tend to think that not only will one be dead, one OUGHT to be, and will probably be GLAD to be, dead. I've given up trying to persuade them that if and when they reach 60 themselves they may find they're not quite ready for the tomb yet.

      Sovay

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    5. I can remember when I was young my parents would be discussing someone who had died, and one would say 'how old was he?' 65 (as it might be) 'Oh, no age at all, very young'. And as children we thought that was ridiculous, that was ancient. NOW of course I understand, but I was just as bad as any other young person....

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  16. Glad to know you’re on your hols, CiB - hope it’s more “Death on the Nile” than “Nemesis”!

    Sovay

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    1. Thank you! I had a wonderful time. It was actually rather 'Thus was Adonis Murdered' , also featured in my best holidays post, but without the murders. Art lovers' tour...

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    2. At least it didn't turn into one of those Michael Innes art-theft plots! Welcome back!

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    3. Thank you! I wouldn't have *minded* bringing some of the pictures back with me, but I behaved myself.

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    4. I trust you drank lots of Campari soda and wrote a long letter to your friends at home every single day!

      Sovay

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    5. Naturally. Well enjoying the local drinks anyway - negronis and aperol.

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  17. In The Moving Finger someone thinks it is unlikely that Mr Symmington the local solicitor would be attracted to his secretary (Miss Ginch) because she is “forty at least, with pince-nez and teeth like a rabbit." I'm not certain how old Mr Symmington is but I imagine he also is forty at least.
    Bernadette

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    1. Yes, good catch. Is it Jerry who says that? - because he is notable for getting everything wrong. Not that Mr S IS interested in MIss G, but that Jerry is not smart about these things.

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    2. No, it's Owen Griffith, the doctor. I've read the book a couple of times before but have been listening to the audio book, narrated by Richard E. Grant who is doing the most peculiar accents for everyone. It's very off putting!

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    3. Well I would expect better of REG - wasn't he married to a voice coach (who sadly died)?

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    4. That's exactly what I thought. I seem to remember liking his reading of other books - I do like his voice - but his choices regarding accents in this one is strange.

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    5. Oh how interesting, I'll have to look out for something by him to listen to

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    6. REG probably thought he'd be making the story more interesting with the accents, but it sounds as if he overdid it! His natural voice is fine, too bad he had to embellish it.

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    7. I read a book by REG (With Nails), and he said that in one movie he played a Scotsman and was criticized for a bad accent, which he had actually learned from his Scottish wife!

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    8. That's his version. I'd say he has a problem with accents, except that I believe he takes a very firm line with critics. Mind you, he's not terribly likely to be reading to the end of a long list of comments on a post which doesn't feature him!

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