Dressing for the ball - NYPL Digital Collections
Clothes in Books roams
all over the place – nearly always books, often clothes, but I never feel
constrained by the name. (Compass
directions anyone? – two
posts and more comments than any other topic ever)
But – one of the key purposes of the blog is to discuss clothes
with examples and illustrations from books.
Today we are going after crinolines, in the full hope that
many of my readers will enjoy, and have something to add…
A forgotten book I am very fond of is Arnold Bennett’s The
Old Wives’ Tale (one of the first posts on the blog, to be followed by several
more on the same book). The author wanted to show how young women
become old wives, but he also said he was fascinated to have overheard a
comment from a woman who had lived through a busy time of history, including
the Paris Commune and siege, apparently without noticing much. He put it straight
into the book:
Sophia…noticed how much easier it was for
attired women to sit in a carriage now that crinolines had gone. That was the
sole impression made upon her by this glimpse of the last fete of the
Napoleonic Empire.
Crinolines feature a lot in the book – they arrive at the
beginning and are gone at the end. Early on, Aunt Harriet climbing into a small
carriage is described as being “an operation like threading a needle with
cotton too thick.” But once in, “her hoops distended in sudden release, filling
the waggonette.”
The underpinning that we call a crinoline arrived in the
mid1850s – the metal hoops were patented then though the silhouette already
existed - and lasted well into the 1870s,
though changing its shape along the way.
Anthony Trollope’s
novels cover a long period, but he is very prolific in peak crinoline time, and
apparently did not like them.
The very distinguished artist John Everett Millais
illustrated many of his books, and the only time Trollope was less than happy
was this one – Lucy being very upset in Framley
Parsonage, throwing herself on her bed to cry. He considered that the very exaggerated skirt
dominated the picture, because of the crinoline, and that Lucy looked as though
she was sleeping rather than weeping dramatically.
In The
Small House at Allington, the
crinoline acts as a barricade:
Cradell looked half afraid of
his fortunes as he took the proffered seat; but he did take it, and was soon
secured from any positive physical attack by the strength and breadth of Miss
Roper’s crinoline.
In his The Three Clerks, one of the young men has
invented a Lady Crinoline (honestly, not worth pursuing). In Rachel Ray
we see them at the beginning of a small dance:
Now the room was partially
cleared, the non-dancers being pressed back into a border round the walls, and
the music began. Rachel, with her heart in her mouth, was claimed by her
partner…she would have preferred to be left in obscurity behind the wall of
crinoline.
A Trollope biographer, Victoria Glendinning, says
the author was conflicted – he was quite rude about them, but she thinks he
also found them ‘exciting’ in certain circumstances (and on younger
good-looking women).
I did a post on crinolines last year, brought on by Sylvia
Townsend Warner’s The Flint Anchor – written in the 1950s but set
100 years earlier and carefully researched:
Women had begun to wear crinolines, and Mary prided herself on having the most imposing crinoline in Loseby. Every year more yards of silk and velvet were required to drape the structure, and a more elaborate system of flounces and outworks was festooned about it. With her stiffly corseted body, her necklaces, bracelets, and earrings, she seemed to be an idol rising from some peculiar dome-shaped altar, and looking calmly and negligently down on the offerings that had been laid around her...
Gwen
Raverat’s Period Piece is a gorgeous book and a fine resource
for fashion info. There is this
I once asked Aunt Etty what it
had been like to wear a crinoline. “Oh it was delightful” she said, “I’ve never
been so comfortable since they went out. It kept your petticoats away from your
legs, and made walking so light and easy.”
In a recent comment section we were talking about people writing
about experiences they had never had: men and women writing about each other
are a particular feature. Roughly
speaking, men assume that crinolines were ridiculously uncomfortable and
awkward but that doesn’t seem to have been the case. Men also felt that they
got in their – men’s – way and enabled women to take up too much space. We look at that differently
these days.
Punch the comic magazine was apparently obsessed with
crinolines: the attention they paid, and the number of cartoons on the topic, are quite extraordinary. The men of Punch just couldn’t get over the idea of crinolines…
Jerome K Jerome has a ‘funny’ story in his collection Evergreens,
about a dog getting trapped inside his aunt’s crinoline. It’s obviously meant
to be a tall story and amusing, but it doesn’t make the slightest sense. The
conclusion would be that JKJ had no idea what a crinoline really consisted of,
or how it operated. Or – of course – what it was like to wear one.
My aunt thinks that it--the
crinoline--must have got caught up in something, and an opening thus left
between it and the ground. However this may be, certain it is that an absurdly
large and powerful bull-dog, who was fooling round about there at the time,
managed, somehow or other, to squirm in under my aunt's crinoline, and
effectually imprison himself beneath it.
Great hilarity ensues, but I don’t think so.
How to wear them: I recently mentioned Irene Thomas,
in relation to astrakhan
collars, and she also came up with helpful
input into keeping your tights up on stage – a topic that gave us one of our
most popular blogposts a good many years ago.
And now we will bring in this fascinating insight from her
days in the chorus of the Royal Opera House:
[Verdi opera] La Traviata
is a great favourite with choruses, it’s one of the few operas where no
designer can make you look awful, because all the women are supposed to be
high-class Parisian tarts, and all the men rich and sophisticated…
The girls were taught how to
walk in the vast crinolines of the 1860s. I wince now whenever I see an actress
lift the skirt by one of the hoops…. The proper way is to press the hoop
inwards towards your knees and glide.
In Dodie Smith’s I Capture The Castle (which I mentioned
recently as an almost-perfect book, and is in general all over the
blog) Rose needs a new dress for an evening out. Family friend Miss Marcy has
an idea:
‘It should be pink,’ she said,
‘a crinoline effect – there’s the very thing here in this week’s Home Chat.’
She dived into her satchel for it.
‘Oh, dear, that would be
perfect for her,’ sighed Topaz.
The two women are conspiring to find a good match for Rose
and know that an old-fashioned look will suit her.
Rose had a real crinoline to
wear under the dress; only a small one but it made all the difference. We
borrowed it from Mr Stebbins’s grandmother, who is ninety-two. When the dress
was finished, he brought her over to see Rose in it and she told us she had
worn the crinoline at her wedding in Godsend Church, when she was sixteen.
I thought of Waller’s ‘Go, lovely Rose’ –
How small a part of time they share
That are so wondrous sweet and fair!
– though I refrained from mentioning it; the poor old lady was crying
enough without that. But she said she had enjoyed the outing.
[After the big night]
I saw Rose going along the
lane with Mrs Stebbins’s crinoline: Stephen had brought word that the old lady
was fretting for it... Rose had it over her shoulder; she did look peculiar.
The book, first published in the 1949, is set in the 1930s. If we guessed at 1934, that would mean Mrs S was born in 1842 and married in 1858 – exactly correct for the crinoline.
There's probably a lot more to say on this topic, and I am relying on some reader input, and I still have oa few more examples ready...
Rose in her pink dress – an illo from 1921 NYPL






They must have been comfortable if they kept all the material away from the legs. It's noticeable today that very young women, by which I mean secondary school aged teenagers, absolutely loathe the feel of material flapping around their legs - hence the very short skirts that barely clear the bum area and the skin tight legging type trousers. It's only as people get older that they choose to wear the baggy or loose styles of trouser, or long skirts.
ReplyDeleteThat's a fascinating theory Ann! Hard to argue, though it's never occurred to me before.
DeleteWith my Socialist hat on, I would assume crinolines were very much a class/status thing. Only the rich would have been able to afford the frame and the many yards of fabric and trimming required to cover it. And you would need servants to clean the skirts. Poor, working women would not have had the money, and in any case, crinolines would have been thoroughly impractical for them. When crinolines were most popular, there was a lot of new money about and newly rich industrialists were keen to flaunt their wealth and establish their position in society, distancing themselves from those “beneath’ them.
ReplyDeleteThere's a claim that crinolines existed throughout society, all classes - I suppose some of them trickeled down, donated by the poshos.
DeleteCertainly the criminal classes liked them because crinolines could be used to advantage in both smuggling and stealing/shoplifting
Not necessarily. The crinoline was one of the first truly open to all fashions. There were studies made at the time to survey people's possessions and almost every woman, even poor women, in the Westernised world, had at least one hoop in their wardrobe, even if they just wore it for Sunday best. There are photos of Australian expat working women living in slab huts wearing their Sunday best - crinoline and all - for the photo.
DeleteThis was part of the problem, because the universality of the crinoline meant that you had servants defying their mistresses by wearing a hoop, and if Madam tried to prevent it, the maids quit and went elsewhere and Madam couldn't employ new servants because they refused to have their dress policed. Factory workers wore them, which led to some really nasty accidents. If anything, the crinoline was hated by men because it forced them to contemplate a world in which women could crowd them out and exclude them by taking up space enough for five men. That's why Punch was so obsessed with making fun of crinolinemania, it was fuelled by misogyny and fear that their masculinities would drop off if women continued taking up so much space.
The narrative that crinolines (or any kind of nice clothing/possessions) are/were only for the wealthy and superior classes is anti-socialist propaganda. A modern day equivalent would be saying that benefits claimants shouldn't have mobile phones or flat screen TVs or even soft furnishings.
Thank you Daniel, a very thorough look at the situation, and very much as I suspected.
DeleteDaniel and Moira, I stand corrected! It just proves one should never assume anything!
DeleteThere are all kinds of interesting and unexpected aspects! We are lucky to have Daniel as our expert consultant!
DeleteI haven't read the books, but I remember an episode of Cranford in which ladies want to order a birdcage and the young lady of the manor, hearing that they want a cage, orders them a crinoline. And they rig it up into a very large birdcage.
ReplyDeleteThe Cage at Cranford. The chronology doesn't fit in at all because I think Cranford is supposed to be set in the 1840s so the existence of the cage itself is rather anachronistic, but it's a fun story
DeleteThanks both, nice story. As Daniel says (implies) the history of crinolines is very specfic and very well-documented, and the timeline is clear.
DeleteI think Cage at Cranford was written as a short story some time after the original books.
DeleteThank you! I hadn't come across it
DeleteThat's interesting about Trollope. I must confess that I still can't think of the huge crinolines as a good thing, although Aunt Etty's remarks make sense. They bring to mind Mother Ginger in the Nutcracker, although sometimes panniers are used I guess. Surely panniers are cousins to crinolines? They both seem too bulky to me.
ReplyDeletePanniers are 18th century and mainly side hoops. They and crinolines are both descended from the Tudor/Renaissance period farthingale, which itself originates from a hooped/corded conical petticoat called the verguada. While it was popularly believed for a while that Ancient Minoan women wore a sort of hooped skirt due to the bell shaped silhouette of the famous figurines, this is no longer taken seriously.
DeleteI love the idea of us all walking round like Mother Ginger!
Deletethere have been frequent fashions for dresses that change the wearer's shape. The point about the crinoline was that in 1856 someone patented a lightweight steel hoop structure, and that changed the whole experience: no longer heavy chunks of material with horsehair padding to make a shape. Crinolines gave you the shape but were easy(ish) to wear
Verdugado is the correct spelling
DeleteThanks again Daniel for sharing your expertise!
DeleteDaniel , you are a mine of information. This is so fascinating..
DeleteHe really is! (it's his job)
DeleteThis website goes into the "Crinoline paradox" in some detail: https://pastfashionsite.wordpress.com/2017/11/21/crinoline-the-paradox-of-the-cage-part-1/
ReplyDeleteNice details, and full history of shape-changing going back a long way.
DeleteAnother site with old photos, some mocking, emphasizing the dangerous side of crinolines: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/crinoline-historical-photos/
ReplyDeleteYes there are a lot of such pictures and I would suggest that nearly all of them were staged for the photographers!
DeleteOne of the best images of servants in crinoline: it was such an issue that lots of housekeeping manuals and advice specifically addressed the question of what to do with servants who insisted on dressing fashionably.
ReplyDeletehttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Finnie._Maids_of_All_Work,_1864-65.jpg
What a lovely picture! Am saving that to my files.
DeleteThe number of 'warnings' that the lower classes would burn to death, couldn't do their work properly etc I am quite certain far exceeded the number of women who did burn to death because of their crinolines...
Unfortunately crinoline fires are pretty well documented in a number of newspaper accounts. Oscar Wilde's two half-sisters died as a result of their dresses catching fire, and one of the worst mass deaths by fire was in Santiago, Chile, in 1863 when between 2000 and 3000 people died in a fire at a church. The fire spread swiftly amongst the women's massed dresses and in the crowds, it was impossible to escape the flames. The event is called Chile's Titanic.
DeleteI think the reports collected from the time suggest that at least 3000 women in the UK alone were killed as a result of dress fires during the crinoline's heyday. Florence Nightingale estimated that there were about 630 fatalities in 1863-64 alone. While there were flame-retardant fabrics available, these weren't considered beautiful so they didn't tend to be worn.
DeleteI don't want to underplay the tragedy, but are crinolines being over-blamed for this? It sounds like the fabrics went up quickly - not the steel. (Rememer Uncle Matthew, who disapproved of tulle because 'he had known three women burnt to death in tulle ball-dresses' - they would not have had crinolines.
DeleteI want to know how many women burned to death not in the crinoline era. and where Florence N got her figures from - I know she specialized in statistics in her later life, but it all sounds slightly spurious to me.
As I say I am NOT saying women didn't burn to death, or not taking that seriously - but I'd like to have more convincing detail as to the fault being crinolines...
It seems one of the reasons crinolines got the blame was because of the springiness and resilience that made them pleasant to wear - it was far harder to wrap a blazing skirt tightly in a coat or rug (and so put out the fire by cutting off its oxygen supply) if it was held out by spring steel.
DeleteSovay
I'm sure I've read somewhere that fires were dangerous in crinolines because the material could start burning and it took longer for the wearer to realise because of the material being held away from the legs - especially at the back. And then it possibly made it easier for the fire to spread to other people and objects? And it would be harder to escape through a doorway if all the women were wearing crinolines pushing against each other/
Deletebut equally, a woman without a crinoline would have blazing material touching her legs, nothing holding it away from her. I can't believe we are discussing this - but I am seeing elements of misogyny here. 'Stupid women wear stupid clothes and get their come-uppance.'
DeleteJo March scorched her dress by standing too close to the fire - it sounds as if she was lucky it didn't actually catch alight. Lots of crinolines in the Civil War era although were the Alcotts into Rational Dress and that sort of thing?
DeleteYes, I see you blogged about rational dress in Eight Cousins!
DeleteAnn: I don't doubt that crinolines had their dangers, but my argument is that each aspect has at least an opposite danger with a non-crinoline skirt.
DeleteSusanna: Alcott very much into rational dress - there is a book called Eight Cousins which bangs on about it. It includes a scene where a guardian burns the corsets that well-meaning other relations have produced for a young orphan girl... I did several posts about the book in the early days of the blog.
Little Women came out at peak crinoline time, but they are never mentioned. Considering how much attention is paid to dress in the book, it is quite surprising how few petticoats appear!
The comment are coming faster than the replies! Ours crossed Susanna
DeleteI have always assumed that Anne of Green Gables is set in the late 1890's - the time of the huge puffed sleeves. Matthew is not a young man, so it is quite possible that those three women he remembered being burned to death wearing tulle ball dresses, were wearing crinolines.
DeleteClare
It's not that Uncle Matthew! I am talking about Uncle Matthew in the Nancy Mitford novels, and I did the maths very carefully before making my statment. 😀 NM's father born 1878, going to balls around 1898. Crinolines long gone. (NM is crystal clear that Uncle Matthew is her father - she refers to her father as Uncle Matthew in her letters quite often)
DeleteI don't think Anne's guardian is ever referred to as Uncle Matthew? And I don't suppose tulle ball dresses abounded there....
I remember one of my father's sisters talking about an incident in their one-room schoolhouse, when the teacher's dress caught fire from the hot woodstove. And this would have been in the early 1920's, so skirts weren't even that long anymore. I think the length of skirts in general was a big factor in earlier deaths. With crinolines the skirts covered more territory, so a person could be standing at a greater distance from a fire and perhaps not realize the danger?
DeleteOof, that reference was too obscure for me!
DeleteTulle is often heavily starched to make it stand out.
Clare
Now I want to know how many men burned to death around fireplaces.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteMen usually wore wool and wool isn't very flammable. When the US Navy switched from woolen uniforms to polyester-blend uniforms, the number of burn casualties aboard ship went through the roof.
DeleteAfter the Falklands War the Royal Navy recommended restoring woollen uniforms in potential combat situations (I think that was the euphemism they used) for the same reason/
DeleteThat does make perfect sense - the thought of burning polyester is horrible
DeleteI was going to mention the relative flammability of different fabrics but am glad to see that Daniel has already provided more info than I could in another thread. Most women must have had enough common sense to keep themselves safe but it's easy to imagine an 1860ish Lydia Bennett in a muslin dress over a crinoline, full of excitement at a big party and not as aware as she should be of where the fire is.
DeleteI'm not sure a woman in the full-skirted but pre-cage crinoline decades would have had the burning fabric touching her legs if her skirt had caught fire, at least not immediately - she'd have had several layers of petticoats to hold her skirt out, which might have insulated her from the heat long enough for the flames to take hold.
Sovay
I looked up 'fireguards' online to find some history, see when they were invented, but all I got was adverts for new ones, and stories about firefighters
DeleteIt would be interesting to know - and also to know where they were used. My impression (based, as usual, on reading period fiction) is that they are mostly confined to nurseries, where they're very common. Elsewhere in the house, people make up their fires, poke them, bank them down, gaze pensively into them, throw on their used envelopes, the wrapper from the box of poisoned chocolates, Aunt Augusta's new and unfavourable will - all without mention of having to move a fireguard first.
DeleteSovay
Yes indeed - not forgetting the anonymous letter that you throw on the flames with a silent curse (so no-one can get any clues from it).
DeleteYes indeed – far better to rip it across and drop it disdainfully in the waste-paper basket, whence it can be retrieved at a later date (though then there’s always the risk that it may be used to explain your apparent suicide). There must have been a bit of a dilemma for recipients of anonymous letters during WW2 – would it be unpatriotic to destroy them rather than putting them in the salvage?
DeleteAnyway, getting back to crinolines and open flames, I think the lesson we should all take away from this post is: wear WOOL over your crinoline. It catches fire reluctantly, burns slowly, and smells strongly whilst burning, so you’ll know there’s a problem even if it’s out of your eyeline.
Sovay
Do you know, we need the Clothes in Books advice book, crowd-sourced!
DeleteWear wool over your crinoline
Keep all anonymous letters
Never take part in a play with a prop gun
Rooms were quite a bit bigger as well, or at least tended to be much less cluttered until later in the 19th century.
DeleteThe first Punch cartoon in this article is quite relevant! It actually gives a good sense of how a crinoline might relate to a fireplace too, as it's quite unexaggerated/non-caricatured. You'd have to get up close, almost onto the hearth, to brush up against the fireplace, and 1863 was the height of the average crinoline's width as we see here. While there were definitely much larger hoops, those would have been more of a statement/exaggeration or at least not the usual everyday garment.
https://victorianist.wordpress.com/2018/07/16/stop-drop-and-roll-for-victorians/
Very interesting article, and yes that picture is helpful in a weird way!
DeleteWould Lucy’s skirt have draped decorously like that if she’d thrown herself dramatically down on her bed wearing a cage crinoline? One of the disadvantages was said to be that if pressure was put on one point on the circumference of the hoop, the opposite side would rise up in the air, revealing whatever was underneath.
ReplyDeleteSovay
I wore a crinoline under a bridesmaid's dress in the 1980s, and I remember this disadvantage! Perhaps 1980s wedding crinolines, and the dresses worn over them, were flimsier than Victorian versions. Looking at the pictures referenced by Marty, it seems that it would be difficult to dress yourself in a very large crinoline. Could this have been a status symbol, telling the world that you could afford a lady's maid?
DeleteNerys
It was perfectly possible to be decorous in a crinoline, to sit and to lounge and to lie on the bed crying! Of course we are not used to it and might find it difficult to begin with, but the *point* was that the hoops were springy and manoeuvrable.
DeleteThere is a play on in London at the moment, Oh Mary!, which I also saw in New York - and every prejudice about crinolines would be confirmed - Mary swings around like crazy. But that is high (and broad) comedy, delibertely played for laughs.
I’m sure it was possible to be decorous if one was thinking about one’s crinoline and how to handle it, but if Lucy has rushed to her room and flung herself down in a frenzy of anguish/despair/rage (I haven’t read Framley Parsonage so not sure what the appropriate emotion is) would that be at the forefront of her mind?
DeleteSovay
I too was wondering about the reaction to pressure on one part of the crinoline. I found a YouTube video on how to sit in a crinoline hands free--you "sweep" onto the seat and the crinoline adjusts by folding up out of the way. On Youtube you can search for "Beauty & the Bustle" plus crinolines, and there are videos about dressing and moving around in Victorian clothes!
Delete'Lucy walked steadily up to her room, locked the door, and then threw herself on the bed.'
DeleteSurely everything you say would apply to someone sitting down? Plainly women didn't have any problem sitting down. Crinolines arranged themselves around you, they did not automatically fly up in the air! Are you imagining a giant circle perpendicular to the bed? Because, no.
Women 150 years ago were not being fooled (by whom?) into wearing something that put them in danger of burning to death and was impossible to handle with decorum!
Apologies to Lucy - she is exercising a lot more emotional control than I had imagined, and so would also have been in control of her skirt! And I have no doubt that this would have been true of all women wearing cage crinolines under normal circumstances. It would be interesting to see a demonstration of Irene Thomas’s crinoline-managing technique, which I can’t quite visualise.
DeleteSovay
Perhaps we need a Clothes in Books meetup where we all wear crinolines and see how we manage! No open fires though, I think....
DeleteI think we do - the grand finale of the event could be a Virginia Reel as disrecommended by Shay! But without cavalrymen (are spurs the problem there, I wonder?).
DeleteSovay
I think Shay should demonstrate for us whatever eventful problem it was. Yes I thought spurs...
DeleteRegarding the fire risk: a very fashionable fabric at the time was muslin/tartalon, which is VERY VERY flammable. There's an account of ballet dancers setting themselves on fire when their muslin tutus caught the edge of the stage lights. Cotton is incredibly flammable, and it was a popular dress stuff at the time. When you had layers of puffy, film, frilly cotton over a steel cage, if you were careless, it was very easy for accidents to arise. It wasn't a question of tricking women into wearing flammable dresses, more a case of overconfidence and wearers being like "oh I'll be careful". When I did Textiles and Fashion A Level, we did burn tests on different fabrics and a piece of light cotton went up in this huge woosh of flame almost to the ceiling, and that was just a small remnant. Everyone in the classroom literally screamed. Luckily as it was just a small shred, it was burned out before anything worse happened, but it was an object lesson in why children's cotton nightwear and dresses had to be made flame retardant. The risk with crinolines was that, as has been pointed out, they could be hollow domes overlaid with layers of floaty sheer cellulose fabrics like cotton, and a stray spark could be dangerous, as you had the air circulation underneath to accelerate the flames. The fabrics would also be starched or dressed with finishes which added to their inflammability (especially flour based starch) but it was very much wearer beware.
DeleteSilk and especially wool are less immediately flammable and/or self extinguishing, but the main point is that wearers were expected to know how to move around and be aware of how much space they took up around them (just like, apparently, if you're driving a car, the car becomes an extension of you in terms of the space you're taking up).
That does sound scary! Tartalon = tarlatan?
DeleteClare
Fascinating thanks Daniel. We were shown that textile thing at school too and were suitably astonished. I remember a teacher saying: 'this fabric was being sold as wool, but it was fake, and I'll prove it' because it was so flammable. Stuck in my mind a long time
DeleteYep, tartalan/tartalon. There seem to be quite a few spellings for it.
DeleteThere's a novel by (?) Charlotte M. Yonge that has a character whose legs have been so badly burned that she can't walk - it sounds like a crinoline fire.
ReplyDeleteI once had a cotton maxi dress with a lining, and hated the feeling of it wrapping around my legs as I moved, so can understand the feeling of freedom.
Are you thinking of Madeline Vesey Neroni in Trollope”s Barchester Towers? She languished alluringly on a sofa, unable to walk because of some unspeakable accident. Or did Yonge have a similar character in in SC of her novels?.
DeleteBarchester Towers was published in 1857, so however La Signora was disfigured, it wasn't in a crinoline fire because crinolines had only just been invented.
DeleteAny advance on a Charlotte Yonge character?
"But without cavalrymen (are spurs the problem there, I wonder?)." In this case it was because the idiot insisted on wearing his saber. Imagine the dos-e-dos with 36 inches of sharp metal swinging wildly as you whirl madly down the line.
DeleteTo add to the above, he wasn't entirely sober.
DeleteHaving danced similar dances I can imagine what a swathe he must have cut during the reel, if you were moving with any speed!
DeleteSovay
Oh my goodness, the saber does sound like a mistake. Saber-not-sober. It would make a great scene in a film mind you - never has 'cutting a swathe' seemed more appropriate Sovay.
DeleteI will draw a curtain over my own adventures in crinoline-wearing (never do the Virginia Reel in a crinoline, especially if your partner is in the cavalry), but in re: Jerome K Jerome, there's a country song called The Mississippi Squirrel Revival that goes into detail what happens when a small boy lets a squirrel loose in church.
ReplyDelete"All the way down to the amen pew, where sat Sister Bertha better-than-you
Who'd been watchin' all the commotion with sadistic glee
You should've seen that look in her eyes
When that squirrel jumped her garters and crossed her thighs
She jumped to her feet, said, "Lord have mercy on me"
As that squirrel made laps inside her dress
She began to cry and then to confess to sins, would make a sailor blush with shame
She told of gossip and church dissension, but the thing that got the most attention's
When she talked about her love life
And then she started naming names..."
I was sufficiently intrigued to look up the song - assuming it was some v traditional folk/country song but not at all - Ray Stevens 1984. I enjoyed listening to it and gawping at the video...
DeleteYou must admit, Sister Bertha Better-than-you is as good as anything Dickens ever came up with in the way of names.
DeleteIt most certainly is!
DeleteI'm late to the party (for which sorry!). I find crinolines interesting as much socially as anything else. On the one hand, they were lighter and more comfortable than lots of petticoats. But still there's this restrictiveness, for lack of a better word, that says so much about that era. They certainly say a lot about the era...
ReplyDeleteYes, I am just getting more and more interested in the details and the sociology that keeps getting thrown up!
DeleteSo a crinoline uses fabric to create the full skirts while a hoop skirt uses a physical hoop? There was a famous series of biographies for children when I was growing up (Childhood of Famous Americans) and the most memorable part of the book about Abraham Lincoln's wife was her obsession about getting a dress with a hoop skirt. My mother said that was made up and if I was interested in biographies, I should start reading adult ones, which I wasn't quite ready for! Later, she introduced me to historical novelist Elswyth Thane, who became one of my all time favorite authors, and in Yankee Stranger, the heroine smuggles morphine and an encrypted message in her hoop skirt across enemy lines (but gets caught).
ReplyDelete'crinoline' was originally a kind of material, a stiff fabric that could take a shape
Delete(this is my understanding,,we may need Daniel back!) There are still 20C references to a 'crinoline hat' which is not (as you might think) a reference to the shape, but to its being made using crinoline as a binding or wire covering to make it stick out.
A crinoline became the name for the hoop or cage underskirt that held the skirt in the right shape.
Hoop skirt is a more general term, and I think (I may be wrong) more commonly used in USA.
In a comment above, I mention Oh Mary! which is a play about Mary Lincoln - though the author says they made a point of NOT researching it or trying to make it authentic: they just made stuff up to make it funny. (not everyone agrees, but I found it hilarious). And her large crinoline features a lot. Your mother might disapprove...
‘Crin’ is French for horsehair so crinoline was a fabric woven with horsehair and linen - the horsehair made it stiff and sculptural so it would stand out and support the outer skirt. Modern crinoline (no horsehair involved) is still a stiff fabric rather than a binding - it’s the stuff a lot of fascinators and mother-of-the-bride hats are made of, loosely-woven and semi-transparent but still rigid.
DeleteSovay
Thanks for info Sovay
DeleteIn Death of a Fool/Off With His Head, the Morris dance includes a female character, the Betty (played by a man of course). It wears what Alleyn calls "a Stone Age crinoline" made of thin willow branches, which is used to "capture" onlookers of small stature. I wondered about the use of the "crinoline" in an ages-old ritual--Marsh reportedly did a lot of research for the book, so it would seem that she didn't make it up?
ReplyDeleteI think 'a kind of stone age crinoline' is a teasing description, not a serious one. It seems impossible that it was actual stone age and I think it was Marsh's way of describing a vast tent-like costume on a frame - she used crinoline to help readers picture it, but I dont think it had any relation to a Victorian crinoline. By her description it hung from the shoulders, not the waist.
DeleteChristine Harding (that sounds formal, sorry!) and Moira, I think it's Yonge's The Clever Woman of the Family. The character's name is Ermine.
ReplyDeleteOh very helpful - that's already on my list of Yonge books to read so I might move it up.
DeleteErmine is an excellent name - I have just been looking at the fur for a future post!
Thank you Christine! I shall hunt the book down. Yonge is an author who seems to have passed me by, other than The Daisy Chain.
DeleteThe reason it is on my list is because a very knowledgeable Yonge fan recommended it to me, so it's very promising
DeleteI was a little confused reading about 20th-century crinolines that came into fashion, I think, with Dior's New Look. They seemed to have been stiffened petticoats rather than steel cages?
ReplyDeleteOh, there were steel cages too. In the 1950's they made the hoop-la. See the following Dutch site. You will have to scroll all the way down. Clare
Deletehttp://wp.dirkjanlist.nl/wp.dirkjanlist.nl/crinoline/
NIce comprehensive website with great pictures
DeleteMini-crinolines! The terms must have become muddled over the years. Google's AI has this to say: "A crinoline petticoat is a structured, stiffened undergarment, often made of nylon net, horsehair, or cotton, designed to add volume and shape to skirts and dresses. Popularized in the 1850s and again in the 1950s, they are commonly used for vintage, wedding, or quinceañera gowns to achieve a full, bell-shaped, or A-line silhouette." You can even sew your own! https://shop.wesewretro.com/products/crinoline-petticoat-sewing-pattern?variant=15020951303
ReplyDeleteI like the idea that you could make the pattern up in an everyday fabric for a skirt.
DeleteI remember that style of petticoat very well and even have one tucked away in a drawer - but they were never called crinolines where I came from. Crinoline only if there was a hoop/wire.
I am intending to do a followup post on crinolines, and have just been looking at the Vivienne Westwood mini-crini fashions of the 1980s
I suppose it's one of those divided-by-a-common language problems, as my understanding of "crinoline" agrees with Marty's AI, distinct from the hoop skirt. I have the dimmest possible recollection of a book in which a girl gets her first hoop skirt and has to learn to manage the hoop when sitting down. It doesn't take long, but there is a knack to it. Could it possibly be somewhere in Laura Ingalls Wilder?
DeleteThere's hoops in Laura Ingalls Wilder, but not a sitting problem - those were the smaller 1880s ankle/knee length hoops that helped hold heavy skirts away from the ankles rather than creating a bell silhouette the way the earlier crinoline cages did. Laura describes how these hoops liked to creep upwards under the skirt (much like your T shirt crawling up your back if you're wearing a backpack) and having to stop and twirl around so that the skirts swung out and the hoops descended again.
DeleteWhen making Mary's dresses for college Laura and Ma were worried that hoops might be coming back:
Delete"They were worried, too, because while they were buying the dress goods Mrs. White had told them that she had heard from her sister in Iowa that hoop skirts were coming back, in New York. There were no hoops yet to be bought in town, but Mr. Clancy was thinking of ordering some.
“I declare, I don’t know,” Ma said, worrying about hoop skirts. Mrs. Boast had had a Godey’s Lady’s Book last year. If she had one now, it would decide the question. [...] When at last Pa saw Mr. Boast in town one Saturday, he said that Mrs. Boast did not have a new Godey’s Lady’s Book.
“We’ll just make the skirts wide enough, so if hoops do come back, Mary can buy some in Iowa and wear them,” Ma decided. “Meanwhile, her petticoats can hold the skirts out full.”
What a great quotation, thanks Susanna.
DeleteThe trials of fashion!
When I went to college (100 years later) there was a poor soul who told us that she had decided to make a nice casual top and skirt for her new life. She was delighted to find some really lovely, very cheap fabric in bright stripes. 'Only' she said, 'as it turns out, I wasn't the only person looking for cheap bedspread material.' It was new accommodation, and every single bed in the building had a bedcover in her fabric. It was in different colourways, but when she sat on a bed in 'her' colours, she literally disappeared before your eyes...
Right, I'll just pop in late here, since we're getting up to 100 comments.
ReplyDeleteBack in my cute little girl phase (not that I was, but I wanted to be) crinolines under party dresses were a Thing. I had one to make my pretty party dress pouffe (spelling?) out. And! there was a casing in the hem of the crinoline where I could feed through a fliexible band to create a hoop effect. I think I wore it that way once, because the moment I sat down--yup--the front of the skirt popped right up.
Even so, I have two short crinolines in the back of my spare room closet with my costumes, just in case. Both were vintage purchases. I always wear one with my Minnie Mouse costume, of course.
You are comment number 94! And never have I been more sorry that there's no option to put photos in this section, we'd all love to see quite few from you....
DeleteThis video shows a woman getting dressed with an 1860's ball gown and crinoline. She made the crinoline cage herself so it's not steel, but it seems quite flexible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WK-HnnpKBg&t=8s
DeleteThat's a really interesting video! I'm curious about the internal structure of her crinoline, which clearly has a device that would prevent it being pushed forward and rising up at the front - I've never noticed anything like that in period pictures of crinolines but presumably she's based it on research. I do think it would be hard to know exactly where the back of the skirt was, especially if the circumference was larger than one would normally wear for everyday activities.
DeleteSovay
What a fascinating video, I very much enjoyed that. I loved the jump when she shook out the skirts! I was interested that she said she might have made it longer - I thought it was exactly the right length.
DeleteRemembering the comment by Irene Thomas about pressing the hoops inward towards yourself, i couldn't quite see that at the time. After seeing how the crinoline moved in this video, that comment makes more sense.
DeleteIt was so helpful wasnt it?
DeleteI tried on a crinoline skirt at a stately home. It was comfortable, incredibly slimming, you swayed as you walked, and I felt like Scarlett O'Hara!
ReplyDeleteThe sway is supposedly what reconciled many men, possibly including Trollope, to the crinoline ...
DeleteSovay
Definitely the positive side of the crinoline. And yes, the biographer thought that was what he liked...
DeleteI must admit that a ballroom full of swirling hoop skirts is a charming sight--even if it's awkward for the men (who don't have to dance backward following someone else's lead, after all.)
DeleteYes a lovely thing to see, and another reason for enjoying that video
DeleteThe "crinoline problem" is fascinating. Although crinolines were perceived as evidence of ultra-femininity and a degree of deceptive artifice, they were also the product of industrialisation, both in design (the lightness and collapsibility of the steel cage) and in their democratisation (which others have noted). Punch's obsession with this "silly" fashion reflects the magazine's tendency to make women the butt of its hearty jokes - especially women's clothing - thus implicitly excluding them from its readership. But many women found wearing the crinoline a way of extending personal space and indeed of defying masculine prescriptions about their behaviour. So, it is a very contradictory item. there's a marvellous chapter on the arrival of the crinoline in Cranford,
ReplyDeleteThanks for a very good summing-up of the issues!
DeleteA nice revenge on some men's tendencies to invade a woman's personal space! Even without crinolines, women have used the spreading of their skirts to keep the "wrong" fellow from sitting next to them on a sofa.
DeleteExactly! I am not taking too seriously any men's complaints on that one.
DeleteI find the Punch (and other) grumbles about crinolines and women's "personal space" hilarious because, as a lifelong rider of public transit, I find the two sexes about equally rude at claiming too much territory. Guys "manspread," like their...pom-poms are just too big to be compressed in a normal seat. Women and men alike annex the adjoining spot for their bag or backpack. Both men and women wear those huge puffy winter jackets, today's crinoline-equivalents. -- Your crabby blogfriend, Trollopian
DeleteI don't doubt that everyday "space-hogging" is divided equally between the sexes, but there are ways in which men take liberties with women, that women don't often take with men. I'd bet that crinoline wearers didn't get patted or pinched on the posterior very much.
DeleteAbsolutely, agree with both of you.
DeleteAnyone who uses buses trains and tubes knows the story only too well
A 1950s crinoline petticoat appeared in episode two of Lord of the Flies (BBC 15th February). It had several stiffened hoops, so looked crinoline-esque.
ReplyDeleteI haven't been watching it! Now where in the story would that turn up....?
DeleteLeafing through Lark Rise to Candleford, my eye fell on this. Mrs Herring is sorry that crinolines have gone out of fashion for this reason which I don't think anyone has touched on: 'It was a handy fashion for young married women. I have known some, wearing a good-sized crinoline, go right up to the day of their confinement without so much as their next-door neighbour suspecting. Now look at the brazen trollops!'
ReplyDeleteThat's was Chrissie. Have you ever done a post of maternity wear, Moira? Could be fascinating!
ReplyDeleteThat's a very good point!
DeleteI did a post showing a pattern for maternity wear https://clothesinbooks.blogspot.com/2025/06/the-murder-in-bethnal-square-by-sydney.html
-- and in it there is a link to a fascinating slideshow of maternity wear down the ages.
.... and I used a couple of nice pics in a post on one of Sarah Ward's books
Deletehttps://clothesinbooks.blogspot.com/2020/08/the-day-darkened-house-came-into-view.html