Emma by Jane Austen
published 1815
Earlier this year I wrote extensively about Jane Austen
adaptations for the i newspaper – links in
these posts.
Taking my commission very seriously (and enjoying myself hugely) I watched
literally dozens of JA films, TV series, and ‘modern updatings’. And I reread
all her major works to give me a baseline to work from. I am not a purist about
film adaptations (which annoyed some people commenting on my choices) but I
thought it was important to know where they were all, ultimately, coming from.
In the past I always said Emma was my
favourite, and I wondered if that would remain my first choice. And - yes it
did. I was more impressed than ever by the cleverness, the charm, and the
good-heartedness of the book. But there were some differences, reading it in later life.
I still love the casual jokes – the miserable old hypochondriac
Mr Woodhouse asks his friend Mr Perry, the apothecary, if if it might be wiser
NOT to eat the rich wedding cake. Mr Perry says yes, it might not be right for everyone.
There was a strange rumour in
Highbury of all the little Perrys being seen with a slice of Mrs. Weston's
wedding-cake in their hands: but Mr. Woodhouse would never believe it.
When the snow comes at Christmas time
Poor Mr. Woodhouse was silent
from consternation; but every body else had something to say; every body was
either surprized or not surprized.
For forty years that has always popped into my head
whenever a group of people discuss a weather event. As true now as it was 40
years ago, and 200 years ago.
It’s often pointed out that Jane Austen does not do scenes
where only men are talking. But that she thinks about it is always obvious, and
there is this interestingly frank input from Mr Knightley, warning Emma about
the hideous Mr Elton:
'…from his general way of
talking in unreserved moments, when there are only men present, I am convinced
that he does not mean to throw himself away.'
ie he will not be at all interested in Harriet.
Though in some areas Emma has no illusions about her
protegee – when she thinks the acrostic is addressed to Harriet, and it
mentions a ready wit, Emma thinks:
Humph-Harriet's ready wit! All
the better. A man must be very much in love, indeed, to describe her so.
Emma is honest and real:
Why she did not like Jane
Fairfax might be a difficult question to answer; Mr. Knightley had once told
her it was because she saw in her the really accomplished young woman, which
she wanted to be thought herself; and though the accusation had been eagerly
refuted at the time, there were moments of self-examination in which her
conscience could not quite acquit her.
And only Frank Churchill and the Bateses would prefer Jane
Fairfax (cold, serious and willing to enter into an inappropriate engagement)
to Emma.
Mind you, we can all feel for Jane F when people keep
saying the wrong thing, going on and on about her morning walk. Austen does
that so well, they are just being civil and conversational but we feel for Jane
and her journey to the post office, and whenever it seems the conversation must
turn, back it comes again.
There is the bleak cold ruthlessness of the comment when
the truth about Harriet’s parentage is revealed:
The stain of illegitimacy,
unbleached by nobility or wealth, would have been a stain indeed
And the surprising way that Harriet gets back together with
Robert Martin – I can’t be the only reader who had no memory of that curious
incident at all. Astley’s Circus! We might as well be in a Georgette Heyer
book.
And there is always Mrs Elton’s criticism of Emma’s
wedding to enjoy:
‘Very little white satin, very
few lace veils; a most pitiful business!’
I had some new perceptions on this rereading. I think when I was younger I took Emma at her own valuation: lucky, blessed, happy, and:
I always deserve the best treatment, because I never put up with any other
This time round I found her sadder, and lonely, and brave. I realized Emma
is a book about motherless children – Emma, Harriet, Jane. (The men also, but
it is less of an issue, though Frank’s situation is complex). It is glimpsed in
the book in a moving way behind the humour and satire, beautifully done. None
of them has a mother to tell her how to behave. All Jane Austen books - apart from Northanger Abbey - make you wonder a lot about Jane's relations with her own parents.
Is it possible the main characters’ privileged lifestyle is
not popular with the lower classes? Mozart’s opera the Marriage of Figaro, and
the play it was based on, famously showed masters and servants, but was
subversive and suggesting things should change, and that was nearly 30 years
before. It sounds unlikely that Jane Austen is heading for that territory but she
was too smart and thoughtful not ever to think about it. The turkey thieves at
the end of the book (another aspect I had forgotten) are surely a sign that
trouble is coming,
And the book even reminded me of Shakespeare’s King Lear:
perhaps this is over-dramatic, but Emma’s fate if she hadn’t married Mr
Knightley, was not promising, for all she thought having money would be enough.
She could have ended up stuck playing backgammon with her father every night forever,
like Cordelia’s prospect of being locked in a cell with her father:
‘We two alone will sing like
birds i' th' cage….So we'll live,
And pray, and sing, and tell old tales, and laugh’
You just have time to think ‘well that’s all very well for
you, mate, you’re old’, when something worse overtakes Cordelia.
Emma got off lightly, even though her living with her husband
and father together is not that attractive a thought.
When I looked at adaptations of the books I mentioned the
description of Emma’s response to Mr K’s proposal:
What did she say?-Just what
she ought, of course. A lady always does
Saying, that’s all very well in a novel, but not going to
work on film.
My favourite version was the 2007 TV serial with Romola
Garai and Jonny Lee Miller. I thought writer Sandy Welch brought out Emma’s
loneliness and Knightley’s awkwardness. Tamsin Greig was wonderful as Miss
Bates, and to hear her drop her voice to a whisper on the word ‘gypsies’ is
worth the price of admission.
The 2020 version with Anya Taylor-Joy is also good, and
definitely draws attention to the thoughtless lifestyles of the rich. It looks
as though it was shot in the Fortnum and Mason’s ice cream parlour, very
aesthetically pleasing.
More on Emma in the blogpost on Sense and Sensibility.
Sitting with her cup of tea – NYPL
fashion collection
Morning walking or carriage clothes - NYPL.


I love this - you are saying several things I have long thought (and in fact, sometimes said or written) myself, such as the fact that it is very much a novel about motherless children. Surely one reason Jane and Frank fell for each other when they met at that seaside resort was their shared Highbury background and the fact that they had both been sent away from their childhood homes and families to live with other people? They somehow share the same forlornness and maybe the same feelings of being outsiders in high society.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also want to stress Emma's admirable courage and good humour. She has a TERRIBLY lonely and boring life: has never been to school, has hardly been out of Highbury, has no mother, no sisters close to her in age, no friends her own age, has nothing to do, and when the only person who functioned as a companion to her leaves Hartfield to marry, what does Emma do? She looks around for another companion and makes do with Harriet because that is what is on offer. She deserves a medal, not blame.
Also, she is not only better than I could ever be with her very trying father, she is also good with children and good to the poor. When I taught this book I sometimes asked my students what Emma would have been today and we usually ended up agreeing that she might have been a social worker or a GP - and a very good one at that: warm, practical and not fussy.
I'm so glad we're on the same page here - and I do love hearing about what you taught in your classes.
DeleteYes I agree with all you say, too - she gets blamed for the wrong things. Her notions of class and social importance are amusing, but her kindness is truly present.
I'd love to hear others' take on the Miss Bates incident. of course Emma offended and upset Miss B, but she didn't burn down an orphanage, and she accepted the criticism and tried to make it right.
I find that there is an undercurrent of discomfort or sadness in all of Jane Austen's books even after the "happy endings." Not everyone is destined for a perfect marriage. What kind of a husband will Frank Churchill make? What will Miss Bates' life continue to be? Isabella and John Knightley never seem to be particularly devoted to each other. Is Emma going to enjoy a husband who is used to scolding her? She ends the novel as she began it, with Mrs. Weston as her only confidante. This is not a criticism of the book, I find it to be a strength, and I feel that it is a shortcoming of all the filmed versions that this tone does not survive.
DeleteNerys
Thank you - those are fascinating questions. Mr K does at least accept that he is quite hard on Emma, and I think there might be prospects for their joining together to make sure Mr Woodhouse doesn't spoil their lives. Many of the subsidiary characters have marriages that seem fairly grim - it is interesting to consider the prospects for the 'good' characters. As you say - there is so much nuance in JA.
DeleteIIRC, somewhere (in a letter or maybe family tradition as set down in the Austen-Leigh memoir) JA says that Mr Woodhouse only lives for two years or so after Emma’s marriage – which is surprising as he comes across as the kind of valetudinarian who takes such good care of himself, he’ll probably live to be 100. Perish the thought that either Emma or Mr Knightley might have hastened his end …
DeleteSovay
Well I'm happy for E and Mr K, but he is deffo the kind of hypochondriac who never dies. Love the idea of the hastening.... There are books of both JA and the Darcys as detectives, perhaps they could be sent in to investigate.
DeleteI think he's probably in early dementia, and since he doesn't seem to get much fresh air or any exercise, it would not at all surprise me if he died youngish by today's standards. Lots of people had groggy hearts due to childhood illnesses, too.
DeleteExcellent medical diagnosis! We can only hope that Emma and Mr K had a wonderful married life.
DeleteI think Emma's relationship with Harriet is more complex than just making do with whoever was available. She doesn't see Harriet as an equal, and has almost a Pygmalion-like attitude towards "improving" and "making a good match" for her. As Mr Knightley points out, Emma's experiment is not in Harriet's best interests. Of course Emma's well-intentioned and much more caring than Henry Higgins, but she's still getting Harriet used to a way of life which Harriet can never really aspire to. Emma's shocked reaction to Harriet's hopes regarding Knightley isn't based just on her own hopes of him, but also on her belief that he's literally out of Harriet's class. But who's responsible for Harriet's "acting above her station" but Emma herself? It's a good thing that Harriet is glad to go back to Mr Martin, or she might have felt she'd been led down the primrose path by Emma.
ReplyDeleteWell.. I think she is misguided - and mistaken about Harriet's background - but she was, as you say, well-intentioned. And between them she and Mr K put it right in the end. Slight diversions on the road to happiness for all of them
DeleteShe was a good person in all, but definitely misguided, and with a little too high an opinion of herself and not quite enough thought for the effect of her actions on other people. (Typical teen?) How could she have been sure about Harriet's background--how much of her belief in Harriet's "gentle" origins was based on romantic imaginings? I still think the whole business was unfair to Harriet (and Mr Martin) and might have ended on a sour note in a different kind of book. Lucky for them that Austen did happy endings!
DeleteBut surely every plot turn in every book is like that? People make decisions and the author follows the results, giving out rewards and punishments and claiming its fate...
DeleteYes, but rewards and punishments vary by author. Austen didn't often leave important characters in dire straits. I think that Trollope, for instance, might have had a much gloomier fate for Harriet--look what he did to Phineas Finn's Lady Laura, who had much more going for her than Harriet did!
DeleteIndeed Lady Laura makes your blood run cold.
DeleteBut Harriet lives in JA, and ends up well, and I think Emma comes out of it perfectly fine.
I'm very much afraid that Emma is my least favorite Austen heroine (or at least in the bottom three). She needs a good shaking.
ReplyDeleteFair enough - though bottom 3 covers quite a lot of her books. You'd better tell us your order of preference...
DeleteFanny Price ties with Catherine Morland (although Catherine is merely silly - Fanny is a drip).
DeleteFair comment, though I'd slightly prefer Catherine.
DeleteI love Emma for all the reasons that others have said. The best Emma film is Clueless. I disliked the 2020 one because at times it felt as if the director had never read the book - I'm thinking of the scene with the mountain of cakes being arranged by two footman. Emma's father was horrified by any sort of cake, and tried to persuade his guests to eat the same poor gruel he was eating. When the Bates came for tea, Emma has to make sure they get something nice to eat, in the way of seed cake or similar - not piles of cream cakes that look like they should be served at one of the Prince Regent's balls! I gather the director previously directed music videos and you can see that in this film - lots of close-up head shots framed by dramatic / moody / stylish backgrounds.
ReplyDeleteIt was a very different take on the book, but I know I'm more inclined to give leeway than others do, with my firm opinion 'if you want authenticity, read the book'. I liked the vibe, and the look - I mentioned an ice-cream parlour. It also had a feel of being locked up in a box of Laduree macarons.
DeleteHow about a "noir" take on the book, as a tragedy of errors instead of a comedy.
DeleteDid you see Andrew Davies wants to write something where Emma dies in childbirth?
DeleteJane Austen apparently used to tell her relations that 'Jane Fairfax died young'. I don't think Frnak was that good a bargain...
I saw the 2020 film and remember enjoying it a lot, though looking back, it’s mostly the negatives that have stayed with me (eg ridiculously palatial Donwell Abbey; Mr Woodhouse far too brisk and sprightly; casting of Harriet that makes nonsense of Emma’s claim that most men would gladly marry her for her looks alone; also it gave Robert Martin something of the awkward country-bumpkin aspect he specifically SHOULDN’T have). I shall track it down and re-watch to remind myself of what I liked.
DeleteFrank’s one of my least favourite characters in JA: he has all the power in his relationship with Jane and he makes her life utterly miserable. If word gets out about the secret engagement and Mrs Churchill puts an end to it, he, as a man (and a rich man too, at least in prospect) will be able to shrug it off with minimal damage; Jane as a poor woman will be labelled deceitful and immoral and unfit to instruct the children of respectable people, and this could literally be a matter of life and death because she MUST earn a living – there are no safety nets for her. It’s unfortunate that she’s such a difficult character to warm to – and very hard to convey to a modern audience without knowledge of the period just how precarious her situation is. I’m not sure what the modern equivalent would be – Clueless got round this by omitting her altogether.
Sovay
Those things dont worry me in a film adaptation, though I take your points.
DeleteBut, hard agree about Jane and Frank. She's stuck with him, he's awful. Frank is a very recognizable type: superficial charm and completely selfish and with an ability to make life very difficult for the woman in his life, though he 'doesn't mean to.' And as you say, the economics for Jane are very very serious indeed.
I have always thought that the relationship, or rather non-relationship, between Jane Fairfax and Emma rings perfectly true, and I can see several reasons for it. There is obviously some truth in Mr Knightley's suggestion that Emma feels uncomfortably inferior to Jane's accomplishments; and Emma's own explanation that it is annoying to have everyone expecting them to be friends because they are the only (educated) young girls of the same age in Highbury also rings true, as does her complaint that Jane is so cold and reserved. But added to that I think is a kind of embarrassment on Emma´s side about Jane's situation and an awareness that this is not fair. If our fates were decided by our virtues, Jane should not be worse off than Emma in any kind of way - if anything rather the contrary, in fact, which makes Emma's embarrassment border on guilt and makes her avoid Jane and the unpleasant feelings triggered by her. I can see that this would be a perfectly plausible reaction psychologically speaking (and Jane Austen was a BRILLIANT psychologist long before the word existed) however illogical it might be.
DeleteGreat working out! yes, Emma's mixed feelings are very well done, and feel quite modern, and satisfying. It would be good to know more about what Jane (F) thinks of Emma...
DeleteI’m still pondering whether there is a modern parallel to Jane’s situation - the closest I can come up with is the woman whose married lover has assured her that of course he loves her and wants to marry her and of course he’s going to tell his wealthy wife he wants a divorce but he’ll have to pick the right moment … and the right moment doesn’t come and doesn’t come and Jane starts to realise that it might never come …
DeleteSovay
That's a very good parallel, Sovay, I think it would work very well.
DeleteAbsolutely - Bill Nighy is fun to watch but he's far too active to be Mr Woodhouse. The costumes in this version, however, are swoony.
DeleteYes I was torn because Bill NIghy always a joy to watch , but he didn't seem to fit the part.
DeleteI once saw Bill Nighy at a Bob Dylan concert - two great men in one place.
He has taken to giving advice in a podcast: 'What kind of shorts should I wear?'
'the kind that are long enough to touch your shoes.'
i like close head shots, well-lit - means I can lip-read the actors and don't have to turn on captions!
DeleteI don't like dark scenes, and actors mumbling in a naturalistic way. But I believe that's a complaint from older people since the beginning of the talkies....
DeleteThe darkness and mumbling came to a head with the BBC "Jamaica Inn" a few years back IIRC - EVERYONE needed subtitles!
DeleteSovay
Yes, I remember that well. I have read articles explaining what the makers are trying to achieve, but have never found it convincing. If viewers can't see and can't hear, what's the point?
DeleteThat's fascinating about Jane Fairfax. I can see that I will have to reread Emma. Yes, I think that Emma is seen at her best with her father, so affectionate and patient. But she does nearly wreck Harriet's chances of matrimony, so vitally important to her future well-being. Yes, her comment on Miss Bates was cringe-making, but haven't we all at one time said/done the first thing that came into our head and regretted it later, especially when young? I find that more forgivable. Chrissie
ReplyDeleteEveryone makes mistakes in JA except for Fanny Price! And she is the heroine I dislike... We must set aside time for discussing Jane A when we meet....
Deleteis it in Trollope's Dr Thorne that one girl's chances of matrimony are destroyed - a minor character, and reported quite unemotionally, but I remember it as sending a cold wave: trollope didn't have time to put it right or even go into it, he just mentioned it... I may have to reread. Perhaps commentator Trollopean remembers more detail.
I feel the same as Chrissie about the snarky remark to Miss Bates, certainly it was "badly done" but it did no harm to Miss B's way of life (such as it was). Mr Knightley strongly expressed his disappointment in Emma, but he didn't scold her the way he did when she had persuaded Harriet to refuse Martin's first offer. He told Emma that she was hurting Harriet's prospects, which seems a worse mistake than hurting someone's feelings in a rare moment of candor.
DeleteIRL I am quite firm with peope who are sorry for doing something ridiculous and say 'I meant well'. In books I am more forgiving. Context is all...
DeleteI agree that as a one-off careless remark, Emma's snarkiness is trivial - however a point Mr Knightley makes is that Emma is, in modern terms, an 'influencer' - if she's seen to belittle Miss Bates and treat her with contempt, others are likely to follow her lead, and in a small inward-looking community like Highbury that could affect Miss Bates' quality of life.
DeleteSovay
All that is true - but I still see it all as rather heavy-handed and over the top. Emma criticized Miss Bates for her behaviour, Mr K criticized Emma for her behaviour. Yes there are other considerations with Miss B, but I still can't see that one of these incidents is dreadful and the other a good and reasonable thing. Emma learned from her mistake: it's a pity Miss Bates doesn't learn from hers.
DeleteFair enough - and Emma is normally very forbearing. The trip to Box Hill seems to bring out the worst in everyone.
DeleteSovay
This thread reminded me that “Clueless” is 30 years old - Cher would definitely be an influencer these days.
DeleteSovay
Isn't it amazing that we can still find so much to discuss in the book? There's a wonderful piece that the novelist Fay Weldon wrote - she had been listening to a serialization on Radio 4, and she was struck by the thought that during the relevant episode, there were people all over the country listening while they did the washing up or the ironing or cleaned the car, and they would all pause for a second and say to themselve 'oh Emma don't do it, don't say that to Miss Bates'. It's an image that has stuck with me for more than 30 years, I liked the idea very much.
DeleteAnd now you come up with the shocking fact that Clueless is 30 years old! Astonishing... Presumably someone will do an updating of it soon.
The "influencer" angle would be a good basis for a current-day "Clueless"! Would Cher be glued to her smartphone and laptop?
DeleteMiss Bates might not be able to "change her spots" very easily at that point in her life, as opposed to a woman Emma's age. (I suspect Miss B wasn't as bright as Emma, either.)
DeleteA smart phone and social media seem so VERY Cher that it's hard to credit that they didn't exist then!
DeletePerhaps if someone had been sharper with Miss Bates earlier she would not have turned into such a terrible old bore, and her life would have been nicer (as well as the lives of those forced to listen to her)
"Is it in Trollope's Dr Thorne that one girl's chances of matrimony are destroyed - a minor character, and reported quite unemotionally, but I remember it as sending a cold wave: Trollope didn't have time to put it right or even go into it, he just mentioned it..." Oh, dear, I may be showing myself some kind of impostor here because I had to cudgel my brain. Could that perhaps be Augusta Gresham, one of Frank Gresham's (the romantic hero's) many sisters? She is dumped by the mercenary Mr. Moffatt, who is then horse-whipped at his London club by brother Frank in one of Trollope's exhilarating scenes; later, she wishes to marry respectable attorney Mr. Gazebee and is talked out of it by her snobbish DeCourcy cousin. The match, says Lady Alexandrina DeCourcy, would "pollute" their linked families. Lady Alexandrina later marries Mr. Gazebee herself. It is a small and shocking story. -- Your blogfriend, Trollopian
DeleteOh thank you! I was worried I'd got it wrong and sent you down a rabbit-hole, but I think it is her, and 'small and shocking story' is the exact description.
DeleteAnn's point about seed cake - no one seems to make it now!
ReplyDeleteYes how true! I remember it featuring in Enid Blyton and I thought it sounded delicious. But my now-husband told me that he dreaded visiting his granny because she gave him seed cake and he hated it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteQuite a while ago I made a seed cake from a recipe with caraway seeds. I didn't think it was anything special and can see that it might be an acquired taste. If it's even the same seed cake that everybody had for tea!
DeleteDoes it resemble the one in the comment below?
DeleteIt was so long ago, I can't remember enough about it to make any comparison! I did look at her recipe and thought the mixing method was unusual.
DeleteYes, it was an unusual recipe. Interesting idea to go over old recipes...
DeleteSand cake with caraway seeds (and cornflour). Lucy
DeleteI hadn't heard of sand cake, but I see it is a thing...
DeleteI made this caraway seed cake from this hilarious web, The Past is a Foreign Pantry. Not bad, not good: I don't recommend it specially.
ReplyDeleteOoops! The recipe: https://thepastisaforeignpantry.com/2020/04/22/seed-cake-1928/ Sorry!
DeleteWhat an interesting website!
Deleteshe does a good job recommending the cake, but I'm not convinced.
DeleteHowever, her website and style are excellent, I enjoyed very much. someone should give her a cookery show - she's hilarious, and I could just see her telling her stories onscreen.
I always imagined it was something like poppy seed cake or similar, a sort of sponge cake with seeds mixed in. It's been decades since I had poppy seed cake, though.
DeleteI think the traditional seed cake is definitely caraway seeds. But poppy seed cakes are nice, and still very current...
DeletePerversely, now that everyone's posted about the disappointingness of seed cake I'm feeing the urge to make one. Probably not from the Past is a Foreign Pantry recipe because of the 10 minutes' hand beating (I have no electric beater and once had to cancel a holiday because I severely strained my shoulder making a banana cake). But I've tracked down nearly a dozen different recipes among my collection of cookery books.
DeleteSovay
Blimey really, ten+ recipes? That sent me off - I've just dusted off my mother's 1950s Good Housekeeping cookbook and it has 4 or 5, plus recipes for sand cake, which Lucy mentioned in respect of seed cake. Let us know how you get on.
DeleteI rely totally on electric aids to cake making, I refuse to do any serious beating.
Having checked the rest of my books, I now have a grand total of 31 seed cake recipes to choose from, though I’ve ruled one of them out (from Mrs Raffald’s “Experienced English Housekeeper”) because it says up front that it requires two hours’ beating. I hope she had a LOT of kitchenmaids, so that they could beat in relays. Also I don’t think I’ll be shortlisting the one that takes 35 eggs.
DeleteSovay
Oh that's hilarious! I do NOT think two hours beating can do any good, but it shows that the woman trying out old recipes on her website wasn't exaggerating.
DeleteIt must have been so popular to feature so much, I wonder why it disappeared? caraway is a very distinctive flavour, but why would it fall out of fashion?
We will wait with great excitement for the results of your experiment. What a pity we can't all have a taste! (Perhaps, like wedding cake in Agatha Christie, you could send mysterious little boxes round to people...)
It's very mysterious - practically all the recipes in relatively recent books start by saying, in effect "this used to be very popular but everyone hates it now (but here's a recipe anyway ...)". It gets a lot of criticism for bland flavour and the seeds getting stuck in one's teeth but only one of my recipes grinds the seeds, which seems the obvious solution to both issues. Ground almonds seem to be key - the solution to the other common complaint (too dry).
DeleteI'll keep you posted.
Sovay
35 eggs?! What army were they feeding--possibly an army of servants? And having read our Christie, would any of us be willing to take a bite from a mysterious little boxed baked good?
DeleteMany years ago, my brother used to talk a lot about a cake he liked at a local cafe. The cafe-owner was a friend of mine, and my mother asked me to get the recipe from him so that she could bake it for my brother as a surprise. The recipe dealt in huge quantities, because he made 10 cakes at a time. To be fair, it was scalable. I think I've still got my original scribbled version of it somewhere: it provoked great delight and laughter in the family.
DeleteThis may be the recipe I tried (or not, but the blog is a fave of mine). At least this blogger sounds as if she likes seed cake! (She's a Canadian who lived in England for many years, so maybe it was a novelty for her.) https://www.theenglishkitchen.co/2016/03/traditional-seed-cake.html
DeleteYes, nice blog!
DeleteMarty - I think the 35-egg cake would have been intended for a large party; also apparently eggs were smaller in the 18th century.
DeleteWhen Moira suggested sending round morsels of cake in mysterious little boxes the thought that came into my head was "I wonder which Golden Age poison tastes most like caraway?"
Sovay
Excellent research prospect Sovay!
DeleteI had forgotten that quote about illegitimacy. At the time I first read "Emma," I hadn't yet traced my geneology, and I accepted the family version that my great-grandfather had moved to America and neglected to send for his wife and children. But she was never his wife. My grandfather was illegitimate in a time and place (very Catholic Austria) where that mattered. It helped illuminate a great deal. I'm not naive; draft dodgers and deadbeat dads were always overrepresented among immigrants to America. -- Your blogfriend, Trollopian
ReplyDeleteInteresting family history - and most families have something tucked away. It wasn't so hard to get away then - and that features in a lot of fiction.
DeleteWhat a lot of frills and ruffles there are on the tea lady’s outfit! Imagine the work involved in ironing that lot, all with irons (made of iron, of course!) that were heated on range-type stoves or open fires. Have you ever talked about servants in Jane Austen and what we imagine their lives to have been like?
ReplyDeleteThat was me, by the way. My socialist views on Classic Literature may have given me away! But I do love Jane Austen!
DeleteHave you read Longbourn? Jo Baker writes about the servants in P&P. I read it a decade ago, so it's not very clear anymore, but I remember enjoying it.
DeleteClare
Yes. I enjoyed it very much.
DeleteI enjoyed Longbourn very much - it wasn't what I was expecting, but I thought it was excellent. I didn't blog on it, but I did do a post on another book by the same author.
DeleteI haven't written about servants in JA - she mentions them so little, they are omnipresent but given no character. Scarcely any of them have names. In a way it's a refreshing change from all those trusted maids in fiction, the twinkly-eyed servants supporting thier mistresses.
Someone who just reread Pride & Prejudice pointed out to me the remarkable fact that there is a butler in the Bennet household - I don't think most of us are aware of that.
I remember a criticism by Hugh Laurie about Austen's not including servants in her books (although we know she did include a few)! I was quite annoyed with him. I suppose she did take servants pretty much for granted, but I don't think she thought of them as non-entities. I may be mis-remembering again, but wasn't Mr Woodhouse concerned with the health of his coachman?
DeleteI recall reading Longbourn and not liking it much - it didn’t ring true from the start that the Bennetts with their large house, comfortable income and need (at least on Mrs Bennett’s part) to keep their end up socially, would have a total of four servants for all the indoor and outdoor work. Admittedly they do add a footman, but only because Mr B wants to give a specific person a job, not because he’s realised that their staff is tiny.
DeleteSovay
Marty: why was Hugh Laurie commenting on this? JA has so little to say about servants, I think anyone could conclude they were not mentioned much and non-entities seems to describe them quite well. James the coachman is mentioned more than any other servant just about, though he never really appears as such, but that is part of Mr W's general absurdity: what he says about him makes no sense. Although the only kind thing Mr W is ever revealed as doing, just about, is getting James's daughter a job...
DeleteSovay: I am very impressed by your niche criticism that the book got the number of servants wrong!
OT--I've had the same servant question as Sovay, but about "Downton Abbey"!
DeleteTee hee! More jobs needed for young actors who could take those roles and learn and earn,
DeleteI do tend to get a bit nitpicky about details - but the Dashwood sisters and their mother, living the quiet life in a country cottage on what everyone in “Sense and Sensibility” agrees is a very restricted income, can afford two maids and a manservant, and there’s never a hint in “Pride and Prejudice” that Mrs Bennett is a skinflint who would employ as few servants as possible and work them into the ground. Quite apart from anything else, she needs to keep up the family’s prestige to attract the right kind of young men for her daughters, and a good-sized staff of well-presented and well-trained servants would be part of that.
DeleteHugh Laurie was Mr Palmer in one of the adaptations of “Sense and Sensibility” (the Emma Thompson version I think) which is most likely how he came to be commenting on servants in JA. I think Marty’s right about Downton Abbey needing a bigger staff, if Angela Thirkell is anything to go by - in “Before Lunch” Mrs Pucken has her eye on a sixth housemaid’s place for her daughter Lou, and there certainly aren’t six housemaids at Downton. Though by the end of the book poor Lou’s destined to be Lady Bond’s vegetable maid.
Sovay
Downton Abbey is on a different level altogether - perhaps more like Pemberley once Lizzy is established there and creating a family. That was one aspect that was done quite well in the adaptation of the PD James book Death Comes to Pemberley. I thought the TV version much better than the book, and it showed what a huge bustling community a big house would be. Downton Abbey was nothing like that, but then if you start looking at improbabilities in the plot you'd never stop...
DeleteI've been googling to find that remark by Hugh Laurie but without much luck. All I found was a quote apparently from a Playboy interview called "20Q" in which he was asked what he preferred, Jane Austen or Austin Powers! I don't read Playboy so I'm wondering if this was the same thing I saw, unless it was excerpted somewhere. The quote was "There are invisible masses in Austen--domestic servants" which itself seems to be a quote from someone else. It sounds a little critical to me, anyway.
DeleteHow funny. Is Playboy still going I wonder?
DeleteIt does sound like a quote....
"My daughters never go into the kitchen!" Mrs Bennett (Lucy)
DeleteIndeed they don't, and if the Bennetts only had four servants I reckon they'd have to!
DeleteSovay
I love Mr Collins thinking he is complimenting the girls, and Mrs Bennett being very put out.
DeleteWhat a great way to delve into Jane Austen and her writings. As we are going towards the end of the Austen year, I have read all of her novels agains (for the umpteenth time). I also really like Emma and have not changed my opinion of it. The only one that I have appreciated more than in the past is "Northanger Abbey". I guess I need to read it a couple more times to put it on my list of all time favourites.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your review. Here is one of mine:
https://momobookblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/austen-jane-emma.html
Thank you for coming to comment, and I was most interested to read your excellent blogpost, which I strongly recommend to other readers. Having had all these thoughts about mothers in Emma, it was great to read someone else's thoughts on that very subject.
DeleteI too like Northanger Abbey less than the rest, but as I say somewhere above, Catherine is the only heroine with nice sensible parents.
I look forward to visiting your blog again.
Anne Elliot was in the same motherless position as Emma, but her companion/mother-figure was apparently stricter than Emma's. I wonder if Emma would have turned out like Anne with that kind of guidance, although I don't imagine Anne ever being as high-spirited as Emma.
DeleteI suppose I shouldn't have called Lady Russell a companion, she would take offense in a big way!
DeleteNow we need to start on the question of whether Lady Russell's advice to Anne was wrong: she ruined Anne's hopes for a long time, and it was only luck that it came right in the end. Just as much as Emma with Harriet - but with a longer half-life.
DeletePerhaps we should stick to Emma and park Persuasion for the future! I am interested to know what people think - how would it have been if Anne had married her beau when he first asked...? What's the alternate history? A future post...
I think Fanny's family in Mansfield Park is the answer as to whether Anne should have ignored Lady Russell's advice. If Wentworth had been injured / killed or simply failed to be given a command in order to get on, Anne would have been struggling to bring up children on a lieutenant's half pay. Patrick O'Brien is very good on the prospects for young officers who had no-one to help them get promotion, however brave and capable they were. In a way, you could argue that Wentworth was being somewhat thoughtless and arrogant in asking Anne before he was in a position to offer her a secure home - and it was his own fault that he never came back to ask again when his prospects improved. That said, I do think Lady Russell's advice was wrong - they could have had a long engagement, after all.
DeleteInteresting - no-one can predict the future (even in a book...) and it always seems it is unreasonable to expect someone to contemplate their own death and thus not marry. Men do take that attitude in books, but it seems unreal to me.
DeleteCassandra Austen's fiance was not a military man (I don't think) but they were engaged when he went on a voyage to the West Indies, and died. I wonder if Jane and Cassandra wished that they might have got married without waiting and at least had a short time together.
It may be a bit much to expect prospective husbands in civilian life to contemplate their own mortality, but I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to expect a soldier or sailor on active service in a war to consider the possibility that they may die, or be disabled for life, and think about what might happen to any dependents if they do. Having said that, if Anne had married Captain Wentworth and he’d been killed, she’d probably have ended up as a dependent in the house of either her father or her sister Mary - in other words, much the same situation as she finds herself in at the start of “Persuasion”.
DeleteSovay
I think most of us have two sides to our head - one half thinks sensibly about wills and the future and protection. the other doesn't really believe we're going to die.
DeleteBut yes, that's exactly what I think - the worst that could have happened if she had married him earlier really wasn't that bad, she'd be no worse off. And ther e isn't time in the framework for her to have had as many chlidren as Fanny Price's unfortunate mother 😀
I do like the idea of an alternate history where Anne had married Fredrick Wentworth. but that would certainly be the subject for another post.
DeleteComing back to Emma. Talking about all the mothers in the novels was an idea by another blog (Gidget Goes Home: https://www.gidgetgoeshome.com/blog/announcing-the-motherhood-jane-austen-book-club) and I enjoyed it tremendously. Maybe I should start looking at other characters in Austen's book, like the suitors.
"Alternate Austen--What If...?" sounds like an inexhaustible subject!
DeleteIt is the sign of a great author that you never run out of topics. Some alternate plotlines are very appealing.
DeleteWhat a great idea, Marianne, to look at mothers in Austen
Well, as I said, it wasn't mine but I loved it.
DeleteThere’s plenty to say about fathers in Austen too - little of it good. Though Mr John Knightley’s being an affectionate and attentive father does help to wrap up one of the loose ends in “Emma” - the trip to Ashley’s that brings Harriet and Robert Martin together again is a treat for John and Isabella’s little boys.
DeleteSovay
Marianne - and you took part, which is the key.
DeleteSovay - I think John Knightley is a very unusual father in JA, given the rest of them
He’s the only decent father I can think of in JA: though perhaps one ought to give the invisible Mr Morland the benefit of the doubt, and Mr Dashwood may have been a delightful father right up to the point when he completely failed to provide for his daughters and their mother.
DeleteSovay
Yes, I give a cautious bye to the Morlands. But will take a stern line on fathers who don't provide - they had all the advantages in life, and then they had ONE JOB
DeleteSo true, maybe that should be my next topic. Thanks.
Deletewould love to read that!
DeleteIt won't be before next year, I still have some other things on my plate.
DeleteThe nice thing about blogging is you can take your time, no pressure
DeleteOh, definitely. And everyone is so extremely nice.
DeleteI totally agree!
DeleteI've been thinking about the comments on Emma persuading Harriet to refuse Robert Martin. Clearly that was a very wrong thing to do, and could have had life-long consequences for Harriet. But potentially, Emma taking Harriet under her wing saves her from another fate. She's a biddable, easily manipulated character and as an illegitimate girl with no protectors she would have been easy prey for the likes of Wickham - if he had chanced by from another novel!
ReplyDeleteOh really interesting and perceptive! I hadn't thought of that, but you are very right, it is only too imaginable.
DeleteI recognize the danger, but I think Harriet did have a protector in Martin, who was interested in her before Emma came along. Without as much power as a Darcy, he still seems the type of guy who would recognize potential predators and could send them packing. He had sisters, so he would have that "guardian of virtue" mindset!
DeleteRobert Martin would certainly want to protect Harriet if he could, but he’s not a brother or a cousin, doesn’t have any formal relationship with her - would Wickham (for example) recognise his right to interfere? However, when Mr Knightley’s talking to Emma at the end of the novel about how he initially misjudged Harriet, he describes her as having ‘very seriously good principles’ which gives one hope that she wouldn’t be so easily seducible.
DeleteSovay
I also meant to suggest Willoughby as another potential rogue to abscond with Harriet. I think Robert Martin would try to prevent it if he could, but I doubt a tenant farmer could really stop an experienced upper class charmer - though it's entertaining to imagine the possible scenarios where Martin gets into a fist fight with Willoughby / Wickham and temporarily spoils his pretty looks!
DeleteI usually like to reply to all the comments, but the conversation is swinging on beautifully without me!
DeleteI do like the thought of Martin engaging in fisticuffs with a possible seducer!
DeleteOne of Robert Martin’s difficulties would be that he’s not on the spot - he doesn’t live in Highfield and doesn’t seem to visit very often - so if Harriet was targeted by a seducer he might not find out what was going on until it was too late. If he did get an inkling in time, though, probably the safest means of getting Harriet out of harm’s way would be to ask his mother and sisters to invite her to stay at the farm again; fisticuffs, however tempting, might land him in front of the magistrates for assault.
DeleteSovay
That would be the sensible thing, Sovay, but I'm with Marty: fisticuffs! He sounds like a solid kind of guy - I'd back him against willow-y Willoughby or wicked Wickham
DeleteI too feel sure he’d come out on top if it came to a fight, and he might get off lightly on the assault charge as Mr Knightley must surely be one of the local magistrates and would bring his influence to bear on the rest of the bench.
DeleteSovay
I think the two weedy Ws wouldn't press charges.
DeleteIn very analogous circumstances, the honest flour miller John Crumb in Trollope's "The Way We Live Now" rescues Ruby Ruggles from certain seduction by Sir Felix Carbury, rearranging Sir Felix's face in the process. There seem to be no legal repercussions for Crumb. (Who marries Ruby.)
DeleteAdam Bede, in Eliot's novel, thrashes his fiancée's seducer (again without apparent consequences) but is too late; she is already pregnant.
Roger Scatcherd kills his sister's seducer in "Doctor Thorne" and is sentenced to just six months, and Trollope remarks, "our readers will probably consider [Scatcherd's] punishment too severe." -- Your blogfriend, Trollopian
This sounds promising for Robert Martin if he does have to take the law into his own hands! Though I still have faith in Harriet and her very seriously good principles. Another analogy has come to mind from KM Peyton’s “Flambards” - Dick the groom beating up his employer’s son who’s got his sister pregnant.
DeleteSovay
Honestly - my readers are the best! Nowhere else could people come up with so many examples, perfectly matched. And spend their important time discussing the potential doings of fictional characters. I LOVE this.
DeleteIf an author’s given life to their characters it’s hard NOT to speculate about their past and future, or how they might behave in different circumstances, different times; plus (as you may have noticed) I like to view everything through the lens of classic crime.
DeleteThe succession of flying machines that play such a major role in “Flambards are all called Emma!
Sovay
Thanks and yes indeed Sovay.
DeleteI'd forgotten that about Flambards.
Oh, Flambards! I grew up in the UK and loved the books. I’ve lived in the USA for 48 years and have never seen them and had forgotten about them. I went back and read your post, thanks everyone for the memories!
DeleteThis is Nerys
DeleteI didn't read them when I was young, really missed out. When I read them as an adult I could totally understand, and knew that I would've loved them.
DeleteQuite possibly I am not really entitled to give am opinion on Emma. As many times as I've started and paged through the book, that many times have I left it, upset, unfinished.
ReplyDeleteThe novel is soaked in loneliness and the silly imaginations that people get up to when they're boxed in and bored.
A social circle that narrow and socially enforced, a lack of a loving environment, what a gothic horror, before the Romantic era even took hold!
It's unsurprising then that Emma embarks on creating a protege. She has no one to help her understand what a disservice it is to Harriet, to lay her open to a life like Emma's own, of eternally feeling inadequate, much less with the burden of nasty whispers.
No, it has always been too much to handle, so I've left it alone.
Thanks for coming to comment - it sounds like it isn't the right book for you. I hope you find something more to your liking.
DeleteSuch fascinating conversations. I couldn't comment because I keep thinking 'Yes but, no but' but I have enjoyed all the comments. Jane Austen still makes me think...
DeleteExactly, she always does. And it doesnt matter how many times you read them, there is always something new.
DeleteDear readers: this thread is now more than 100 messages long: a first for the blog, and I would like to thank you all for being such fantastic contributors. And please keep posting if you want the discussions to continue 👏👏👏👏
ReplyDeleteThank you all!
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteFunny that Emma, who's so unlike Fanny Price, should inspire even more discussion....even though we do digress from time to time. Austen Power!
DeleteI am SO delighted as you can imagine! the Jane Austen discussions just get better and better. but the lovely thing is, eveyrone is so good-natured and willing to listen to another pov, even if they are in strong disagreement.
DeleteAre Brits familiar with US television's Lt Columbo and his "just one more thing...."? That's how I feel in these discussions!
ReplyDeleteThey're repeating it daily on one of those extra channels. And I can tell you, even Germans are very much aware of him. I grew up in Germany and we all watched it!
DeleteAs Marianne says! Very familiar here in the UK, and that ''just one more thing..." quote is very much part of common currency. And very applicable to this discussion.
DeleteJust one more thing ... does anyone have any thoughts about where the Woodhouse wealth comes from? JA says " ... the Woodhouses had been settled for several generations at
ReplyDeleteHartfield, the younger branch of a very ancient family ... The landed property of Hartfield certainly was inconsiderable, being but a sort of notch in the Donwell Abbey estate,
to which all the rest of Highbury belonged; but their fortune, from
other sources, was such as to make them scarcely secondary to Donwell
Abbey itself, in every other kind of consequence".
So - what other sources? Emma has plenty of views on the degrading nature of Trade, but does she protest too much?
Sovay
Donway Abbey? Nicked from the monks by Henry VIII. Lucy
DeleteCertainly - and Mr Knightley is making a comfortable income from the farms &c that came with the house. But it's clear that the Woodhouses' Hartfield isn't supported by extensive agriculture land - it's just a nice modern house with garden and grounds for strolling in.
DeleteSovay
Well, does the ugly spectre of slave labour abroad rear its ugly head again, as it did in Mansfield Park?
DeleteClare
This is an interesting discussion from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/janeausten/comments/1dj35z5/what_was_the_source_of_the_woodhouse_family_wealth/
DeleteThat's a great reddit thread, Marty, and worth reading for all those interested in Sovay's point...
DeleteThat’s a very interesting thread, with lots of ideas. It seems odd that JA is so cagy – normally she’s happy to talk about money, who’s got how much and where from, so my feeling was that if they had agricultural income from estates elsewhere there’s no reason why she wouldn’t say so; also they’re a younger branch of the family, and it would normally be the senior branch that had control of the subsidiary estates.
DeleteSlavery is always in the background at this period but I agree with some of the Reddit commentators – the fact that it’s raised in connection with Mrs Elton’s family background makes it seem less likely that Emma would be implicated.
I’m wondering whether they have interests in eg mining elsewhere in the country – that’s not quite trade but might not be something to dwell on. Or maybe they’re investing in the new industries and infrastructure (such as canals) without being actively involved in the businesses as such – again, not quite trade but a bit too close for comfort.
Sovay
Perhaps there's a book on historical economics to be written here - it would make a change from the the updates, followons and zombies in JA!
DeleteThis essay makes an argument that Mrs Elton's family may have had connections with the slave trade. It says the slave trade began in the eighteenth century in England, which I'd think would be much too late for the Woodhouse wealth to be built on it. https://papers.iafor.org/wp-content/uploads/papers/kamc2020/KAMC2020_59073.pdf
DeleteAnother interesting article - all sorts of references that JA’s contemporary readers would have picked up on but that modern readers miss unless they’re pointed out - though one can draw some conclusions from Mrs Elton’s defensiveness about the slave trade. I think the author of the article is wrong, though, in suggesting that Emma envies Mrs Elton her lace and pearls and barouche-landau!
DeleteThe ‘classic literature and zombies/sea monsters/vampires/whatever’ trend was weird … historical economics definitely preferable.
Sovay
A very interesting essay, thanks Marty.
DeleteI'm with Sovay - Emma wouldn't be envious of Mrs E's possessions, she would think that beneath her. I don't think she is worried about her lack of worldly experience either: although she does suddenly see some of the advantages of the married state...
Yes, Emma did seem to find Mrs Elton beneath contempt, thinking that Mr E had accomplished nothing important in his marriage. But I think her pride may have been irritated just a bit at Mrs E "going in first" to dinner and such.
DeleteI think Emma admits, at least to herself, that she's a bit miffed when Mrs Elton assumes that the ball at the Crown is in her honour and that she will be at the top of the first dance; but she carries it off well.
DeleteSovay
Yes Emma minded - but she would have minded whoever it was. The other aspects of potential envy were specific to Mrs E, and I do believe she didnt care.
DeleteI'm sure she DOESN'T care about the possessions - she could no doubt have them if she wanted them, but flaunting such things in a small country town would be vulgar and ostentatious (and as you highlighted in your post, she doesn't have any opportunities to go to the kind of social events where they WOULD be appropriate).
DeleteRe: precedence at social events - I've been re-reading "Persuasion" and find I'd forgotten what a thoroughly dislikeable woman Anne's sister Mary is, for many reasons, one of which is that she seems to insist on taking precedence of her mother-in-law even at family dinners.
Sovay
Yes she is. Also remember Lydia pushing in front of her older sisters now she's a married woman in P&P
DeleteShould we have a vote on "worst sister in Austen"? Anne's other sister was no prize either.
DeleteI would find Marianne incredibly annoying, though it would be unfair to call her the worst sister.
DeleteMary Bennett is no prize.
One thing I did like about “Longbourn” was that it was less dismissive of Mary than most P&P sequels/expansions tend to be - not that it had a lot to say about her IIRC but it did make the point that she’s very isolated in that family. Jane and Lizzie are best friends, Kitty and Lydia are cronies, Mary’s on her own in the middle and neither parent has any time for her …
DeleteSovay
One thing I did like about “Longbourn” was that it was less dismissive of Mary than most P&P sequels/expansions tend to be - not that it had a lot to say about her IIRC but it did make the point that she’s very isolated in that family. Jane and Lizzie are best friends, Kitty and Lydia are cronies, Mary’s on her own in the middle and neither parent has any time for her …
DeleteSovay
As ever, I wonder if that reflects something in JA's own family.
DeleteI had a friend who was evangelical on the subject of famliy size: no-one should ever have an odd number of children, or one would be left out! this seemed to miss the point in many ways - apart from people's reasons and abilities to have children, a child in any family positioin can be left out, I would say.