We started a discussion in the comments on certain word
usages….
Villages,
Reginald Hill, and Pictures of Perfection
Reginald Hill a great one for using obscure words, and I
had mentioned ‘wrack’ and ‘desert’ used in a specific and unusual way. Everyone
had a lot to say.
One of the matters I mentioned was that when I was writing for a US magazine, I used the word spelt - as in 'he spelt it wrongly' and there was a furore online, people claiming this word didn't exist except as a grain. I'm sure I asked some grammatically-minded Americans to adjudicate, but can't remember any outcome.
I feel there is a distinction: 'He spelled it wrongly' means he always spelled
that word incorrectly. 'He spelt it wrongly' means 'on this occasion.' It is a
similar construction to learnt, dreamt, and even dwelt, which is definitely archaic.
It's good to remember that online furores over word use have been going a long
time. Some (the more polite) of my commenters back then would fit right in on Clothes
in Books comments. I can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure when I
first saw the long list below the line I assumed it was about something controversial
in the article, but absolutely correctly they had all focused on a verb.
When I started this blog, if anyone had told me that the comments
would end up like this, I would have been so happy. I do love a proper discussion
where everyone weighs in, good-naturedly as always.
I try to be very relaxed about other's usage, while liking
to preserve distinctions, and I try to use what I consider the right word and arrangement
myself. I see it as a hobby that I know about disinterested, minuscule,
semi-colons, possessive pronouns with gerunds, and what a gerund is, the
difference between practise and practice (UK only), use of hopefully, longueurs.
But - I'm sure my writing is full of times where I break my own rules, and I am
as gentle with myself as I am with others. Writing for a US magazine for a long
time helps with this, because there are differences which I didn’t always
remember.
The placement of punctuation marks in relation to quotation marks
I really had an issue with. I am always amazed that even in the US the UK
system is known as ‘logical punctuation’: Americans have deliberately chosen a
convention which is not logical? I’m sure someone will bravely defend.
There's a Margery Allingham book where the spelling
of ‘judgement’ gives a clue. I would say it is definitely a personal choice
rather than a meaning. And there is an Agatha Christie book where there
is discussion of enquiries vs inquiries. Somewhere lost in the mists of my memory there is a thriller in which a serial killer has been hypnotized into misspelling words in their messages, the same letter is omitted - I always thought this was a fabulous plotline and I wish I could remember the name or author of the book. Anyone?
Then there is Ian Fleming. When his publishers tried to argue him out of
using a certain word, he replied “Do please let me leave this in if only to
make my readers read at least one of my words twice over.”
It wasn’t a rude word, just an unknown one, and he certainly
made me look closely at it – you can find my investigations in this post:
Thunderball
by Ian Fleming–Part 2
I have read a
lot of books, and thus come across a lot of words, so actually I really
like it when someone surprises me with a new one, so long as I don’t think they
are being pretentious.
I recently read a book called O Caledonia by Elspeth Barker.
It’s a great favourite with some people, though didn’t particularly do it for
me. But I was delighted to learn something new:
The heroine Janet has annoyed her mother with her choice of
dress for an upcoming event:
‘Never. Never. Never,’ [her mother] said
aloud, surprising herself.
Janet leered at her.
‘Tricolonic anaphora’, she remarked in her most irritating, pedantic voice.
I had no idea what that meant, didn’t remember ever having
come across it.
Anaphora is this:
The use of a word referring back to a word used earlier in a text or conversation, to avoid repetition, for example the pronouns he, she, it, and they and the verb do in ‘I like it and so do they’. Compare with cataphora.
So this is cataphora:
the use of a word or phrase that refers to or stands for a later word or phrase (e.g. the pronoun he in ‘he may be approaching 37, but Jeff has no plans to retire from the sport yet’).
Tricolonic means something is repeated three times for rhetorical
effect.
I don't think I get this 'never never never' as tricolonic anaphora, as it
doesn’t seem to avoid repetition, nor does it refer back to anything else. But
I’m sure an expert reader can put me right.
The one thing I am sure about is that you should never be
too prescriptive, for various reasons, but hugely because you will only get
caught out. I have an enormous amount of writing online, and it must contain
many errors & infelicities, small and large.
I always think of Nancy Mitford, who was the Queen and
Dictator of what was U and non-U, ie posh and not. There was a long famous list of
words which were lowerclass, with a matching list of the U equivalents.
In 1951 she wrote to her good friend Evelyn Waugh about
republishing her early novels, and says this about Pigeon Pie, first
published long before U and non-U came into consideration:
I say, it’s full of mirrors mantelpieces handbags etc don’t tell my public or I’m done for
A lesson for us all
there….
Grammar.
- NYPL Digital Collections
I
couldn't spell that word because I love you - NYPL Digital Collections





What an interesting topic, Moira! Language and language use absolutely fascinate me, and so does the way different authors use it. It's funny you mention words such as dreamt and learnt and the distinction between them and words such as dreamed and learned.. As you'll know, American English doesn't really have that distinction. It's a bit like Spanish, where the verb you use can have important shades of meaning. If you say someone is beautiful or handsome as a personal characteristic, you can say es bonita/es guapo,. But if you mean someone looks particularly pretty or handsome (say, in a particular outfit), you'd say está bonita/está guapo. Just the choice of a different word gives a different shade of meaning, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteThat's fasciating, thanks Margot, I knew you'd have an interesting contribution to this!
DeleteWhen a language has different distinctions, I wonder if it is related to national character....
I remember that distinction from Spanish classes (a loooong time ago), and wondering why English didn't have something similar for "to be". (Period outside quotation marks--yippee!) In the US at least, we'd need some kind of modifier or even a whole 'nother verb (as in the song "Wonderful Tonight").
DeleteI'm all for more subtleties in language, even if not everyone is going to bother with them
DeleteI wonder, how would "To be or not to be" translate into Spanish?
Deletethe floor is open to speakers of Spanish to tell us....
DeleteOK, off to Google I went. I found a slightly different meaning for anaphora which makes a little more sense with tricolonic. Here is Google's A1:
ReplyDelete"Both are rhetorical devices used to add rhythm, emphasis, and memorability to speech or writing. However, anaphora is about repeating the start of sentences, while tricolon is about having exactly three parallel parts.
They often overlap—a three-part tricolon where each part starts with the same word is a tricolon anaphora"
Oh thanks - helpful explanation!
Delete"First in war, first in peace, and first in the hearts of his countrymen."
DeleteLovely example!
DeleteI also had to look for "logical punctuation" which I wasn't familiar with. I found this article explaining it, and realized that it's something that I know quite well, and has bothered me! I had heard an explanation that a period or comma was always inside quotation marks for printers' typesetting purposes, but have no idea if that's really the case....I've never liked that particular convention, and now I feel free to ignore it! You have liberated me. https://slate.com/human-interest/2011/05/logical-punctuation-should-we-start-placing-commas-outside-quotation-marks.html
ReplyDeleteIf that was the case, for the printers, then that reason has obviously long gone... and did UK printers not mind?
DeleteI was entertained that that helpful and informative article was from Slate - the very magazine where my lovely editor used to correct my punctuation when I forgot...
Choose freedom!
You have reminded me of John Betjeman's wonderful poem, 'How to Get on in Society,' which begins, 'Phone for the fish knives, Norman ...' Chrissie
ReplyDelete'is trifle sufficient for sweet?'
DeleteYes I love that one. Such an achievement to cram so many phrases into one short poem!
Another friend of Nancy and Evelyn...
I was taught that 'judgement' and 'judgment' are interchangeable in everyday use but that 'judgment' is always used in the law. 'My judgement was that the judgment at the Old Bailey was correct.'
ReplyDeleteAnd I got through my 11+ with First Aid in English by Angus McIver. Even now I remember its lists of collective nouns (clowder of cats, murder of crows, parliament of rooks) and its nonsense verse. 'The elephant is a bonny bird. | It fits from bough to bough. | It makes its best in the rhubarb tree | And whistles like a cow.'
Another vote for First Aid in English. Everything I know about grammar came from that book.
DeleteA very useful item
DeleteNest. Not best. Grr.
ReplyDelete"Best" is netter bonsense.
DeleteThe nonsense - however temporary - of hamfisted typists is often better than what was meant.
Interesting about judg(e)ment, I think it kind of makes sense?
DeleteYes I remember First Aid. And those collective nouns.
Roger: Bravo for that 👏👏👏
Wrong use of “disinterested” bothers me, but I’ve stopped commenting on it and accepted that trying to retain the original meaning is a lost cause; same applies to “alright” replacing “all right” though that bothers me a lot less. On the other hand, I’m aware that I use “hopefully” wrongly (and frequently) myself.
ReplyDeleteGerunds for some reason brought Nigel Molesworth instantly to mind – I must flick through The Compleet Molesworth this evening and find out why. I know what one is; not sure what the issue is with possessive pronouns?
Someone (I think probably Sergeant Frank Abbott) talking about Miss Silver mentions that on her business card “Enquiries” is spelled with an E – the implication IIRC being that this is more formal and old-fashioned than “Inquiries”, fitting in better with the image she projects.
Sovay
The reason for the Molesworth/gerund association - from How to be Topp:
Deletehttps://cambridgelatintutor.wordpress.com/tag/ronald-searle/
Sovay
Molesworth is always Topp, he deserves the Mrs Joyful prize for raffia work.
DeleteGerunds and gerund phrases should have a possessive before them. So : 'I object to you doing that' should be 'I object to your doing that'.
I adore Molesworth’s gerund. I read How to be Topp when I was 11, and it was the first time I heard of gerunds or gerundives. Indelible - though I find I now I have a much bigger pang over the poor gerund being led into captivity. I’m also reminded of the cartoonist Allie Brosh, who invented an animal called the Alot as a way to stop minding other people’s grammar. Zoe https://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
DeleteYes, I think whenever I hear the word gerund I see the picture in the book.
DeleteYour cartoonist is charming
Years ago I used to work with a chap who looked uncannily like the portrait of Nigel Molesworth at the beginning of Down with Skool, though a little older and less disgruntled (and minus the skool cap). I was tempted to ask him whether he was aware of the resemblance but didn’t quite dare …
DeleteSovay
That's hilarious! And yet I can imagine, there was a certain English schoolboy look captured in the illos, you can see how he would grow up
DeleteAnd I seem to remember that Nigel Molesworth created ladies dresses when he grew up. I no longer have the books, so I can't check. Chiz
Delete,
I don't remember that! I always knew he was a Clothes in Books hero
DeleteIn Whizz for Atomms Nigel gazes into the future:
DeleteFearfully I put my grate nose towards the cristal ball … ”Another splendid creation by NIGEL is this daring cocktail frock in burned orange and squashed muskrat. Note how Nigel has modelled bodice and waist in crashed chipmunk and a flaring skirt with matching beads. No wonder that Nigel’s B-line is the sensation of the season. Nigel has FLAIR! Nigel will be showing his spring collection …
CURSES! I take the wretched cristal pill and punt it out of the window. It take few things to drive me back to the imperfect subjunk of avoid but this is one of them.
Sovay
Oh that's wonderful! Thank you for tracking it down
DeleteThank you, Sovay. Still makes me laugh. It is a good parody of a certain type of fashion journalism, too. Now where did I put my my orange and musrat cocktail dress?
Deleteand he has an imperfect subjunctive too!
DeleteOh please don't introduce distinctions where there aren't any! People try and tell me that skeptic and sceptic have different meanings and I put my fingers in my ears and go "la la la". And if a distinction is so small, and can't be heard, scrap it!
ReplyDeleteWell... sometimes the distinctions are useful? EVeryone has their own tipping point I think.
DeleteWhat is the difference in meaning between skeptic and sceptic, apart from Americans and Britons having differences in outlook which will affect the way they regard things?
DeleteI will say I have never heard of any difference, and have always assumed it was just different transliteration from the Greek - we (UK) were traditionally more prone to use c rather than K. Perhaps some reader can enlighten us? I like the idea of different outlooks.
DeleteWhen moving between US and UK the one word I had trouble with was 'schedule' - I had to pause for a microsecond to decide where I was and which way to pronounce it.
(I've just had a sudden memory of listening to Radio 4 probably 40 years ago, and someone was being interviewed on their area of expertise, which was ceramics. And she and the interviewer both used a hard c - keramics as it might be. I don't believe I've heard that since)
The line is King Lear is "never never never never never".
ReplyDeletethe scene is full of repeated words. No no no no.
DeleteThey sound quatrocolonic...
I remember joking that if that was supposed to be iambic pentameter, surely it should be neVER, neVER, neVER, neVER, neVER...
DeleteNice one! I'd like to hear it said that way, see how it sounds
DeleteGoodness me.
ReplyDeleteWell, as a lifelong member of the Grammar Police (Canadian Division) I would have much to say about many things. However, I recently decided life is just too short and there are far more serious things for me to fret over (many many many things). Thus, I have finally retired from explaining grammar points with Those Who Should Know Better. Lay/Lie; Presently/Currently; Disinterested/Uninterested. Whatevs.
Even with those most egregious Grammar Sins (she gave it to Sally and I; we visited the Smith's last week; "Fresh" Strawberry's) I merely sigh and move on.
I think that sounds like a sensible decision. my own feeling as I say above is that I can try to do the right thing myself and not worry about anyone else.
DeleteOh dear. It has taken me all day to get 'kipper is the masculine of heroine' joke. I am bothered by disinterested /uninterested confusion because they so completely alter the meaning of a conversation...but everything else, nah.
ReplyDeleteUh....Thanks, Anon. Now I'm going to have to spend all day thinking about it.
DeleteIt befuddled me. I think, is it herring is the point?
DeleteDisinterested is a worthwhile distinction, it is a useful word, but I think it's a losing battle
I taught beginning readers for many years. While they are learning, these children often write words as they hear them (pujarmers, for example). I see this kind of thing online frequently now, and I wonder if it's because people don't read very much. The most common example is saying "I should of known" instead of should have. It's not a grammar point exactly, but it bothers me. I suppose the language is evolving.
ReplyDeleteNerys
Tht's a fascinating pereception, I'm intrigued and will think about it!
DeleteYes, I keep telling myself that language is evolving.
And it is very true that if you look back at criticisms and complaints from say 50 years ago, there were massive objections to phrases and usages that we don't think twice about now.
I blame the contraction "should've" for a lot of the confusion. Contractions in general cause confusion....
DeleteDefiniteley, but they do also have their place.
Delete"Shoulda, woulda, coulda"....
DeleteI like those ones!
DeleteI think the letter in 1951 was three years before U and non-U were coined.
ReplyDeleteIn Pursuit of Love, in 1945, Nancy Mitford gives Uncle Matthew a speech in which he objects to usages such as notepaper, handbag, mantlepiece, mirrors and perfume. 'Fancy hearing one's wife talking about notepaper - the irritation!'
DeleteIt was because of that list - which attracted considerable attention at the time - that she came later to take on U and non-U.
So I was simplifying, but not much...
The way Uncle Matthew uses "fancy hearing" to mean "imagine hearing" or "What if one hears" irritates me profoundly!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe vocabulary differences would have been around for some time before 1954, and no doubt Mitford would have grown up learning which words she should and shouldn't use!
DeleteRoger: while trying for gentleness, I am full of admiration for people who can get annoyed with something as niche as Uncle Matthew and 'Fancy'. Mitford is quite fond of the word, uses it a lot. And there is a reference (in LIACC) to one of Uncle M's younger daughters tormenting her sister by saying 'Fancy' in a certain way. 'why would she bellow & half-kill her ... I think they hardly knew why themselves" - it has always seemed to me an excellent description of the way families have jokes and moments.
DeleteMarty: yes indeed - it wasn't something she got up for U and non-U, it was part of her life. She didn't invent U and non-U - an academic sent her a scholarly paper because of what she had written about those differences.
DeleteMy mother, who is 97, still says “Fancy meeting you here” and “Fancy wearing that in this weather.” She also says mirror, notepaper, and serviette, so make of it what you will. I never used fancy in that way, and I think it’s almost obsolete.
DeleteNerys
Your mother sounds lovely. It's never occurred to me to think about this usage, but I think you are right that it is on its way out. Nancy Mitford uses the word a fair bit, as I say above. There's fancy used as you might say imagine, and also a lot of people 'taking a fancy' to something or someone, and fancy as an exclamation.
DeletePossibly because of the "is attracted to" meaning taking over? I immediately thought of the scene in one of the Harry Potter books where one of the Weasley boys teases his mother about Gilderoy Lockhart by saying, "Oooh, Mum *fancies* him!" But that too might be going out, dunno.
DeleteWhen I was a teenager (a long time ago) we all talked about fancying people - but we would have understood other uses of fancy. I'll have to ask some modern young people...
DeleteThere is also a usage pertaining to 'show animals' so there is a Cat Fancy, which deals with pedigrees and runs shows. And Monica Dickens wrote a book (it's on the blog) about the rabbit fancy during WW2. (half the rabbits for showing, half for eating)
I also just saw another meaning, which I hadn't understood as such:
- Of a drawing, painting, or sculpture, created from the imagination rather than from life: example
"I used to take a seat and busy myself in sketching fancy vignettes"
- I think I would have assumed fancy meant 'decorated' here, not getting that they were 'from my fancy'
I must say, I am loving this discussion, it couldn't be a better example of the kind of comments and concentration I love best
I still frequently use “fancy” in the way that irritates Roger (sorry, Roger …). But I am a long way from being a young person, modern or otherwise. My impression is that the “pertaining to show animals” meaning is also clinging on, but mainly in respect of pigeons and pigeon-fanciers, at least as far as the general public is concerned.
DeleteA Victorian Shakespeare riddle came into my head as soon as this discussion started – viz. “Tell me, where is fancy bred?”. Answer: At the baker’s. Presumably ‘fancy bread’ would be decorated, enriched, not just bread-and-butter bread, so would fit your initial assumption about fancy vignettes.
Sovay
“She could sit on her hair! Fancy!” Maud from Envious Casca, of course. Maud having spent time in the second row of the chorus makes me think that this exclamation is somewhat non U.
DeleteNerys
Fancy is definitely something that shouldn't have anything special about it, but once you start thinkng about it all kinds of things jump to mind.
DeleteAnd Nerys what a wonderful reminder of the excellent Maud
Isn't there a rather vulgar but basically very nice, 'good' girl named Fancy in one of the Miss Silver books? Some young man brings her down to the country, where she wears bright red and does not fit in at all, but she is obviously not involved with the murder and will clearly go on to make a much more suitable marriage with someone of her own class. She's very shrewd and Miss Silver approves of her. (Sorry, not at all about the verb.)
Delete@Dame Eleanor Hull - Yes! Fancy is inMiss Silver Comes To Stay. She also gets a very Clothes In Books bit where she’s planning to copy a high fashion dress, because her friend who models will tell her how the pleats work.
Delete@Clothes In Books - Pet rats are sometimes called “fancy” rats, I think to make it very clear that they’re not vermin. There’s also a bit in one of EF Benson’s memoirs where a painting of her husband’s mistress is mistakenly and very publicly delivered to an aristocratic lady during a party. She tactfully praises it as a “fancy portrait” - ie a made-up person, allowing everybody to avoid social embarrassment. Zoe
I was very pleased with the post I did on Miss Silver Comes to Stay, so will link to it
Deletehttps://clothesinbooks.blogspot.com/2025/11/greece-ambler-stewart.html
there are I think v nice photos to go with the tweed suits and Fancy in her red outfit.
Zoe - two great, and very different, additions to the lore of fancy! Thanks
I think this one: https://clothesinbooks.blogspot.com/2020/09/miss-silver-comes-to-stay-by-patricia.html
DeleteThat red suit! I die for it. You can call me anything you want, I don't care, I am like Mrs Jackson in the O. Douglas books pining for her scarlet dress--worse, really, because Mrs Jackson knows where she could wear that dress and I don't know what occasion would call for the red suit--but I wants it, precious.
Maybe it's only on this side of the pond, but there's an expression "take a fancy to" someone or something, often describing a transitory or capricious fondness. Also "have a fancy for" something, as in "I've a fancy for a big bowl of chocolate ice cream" (which happens often). That may be the meaning behind Cat Fancy, although a fondness for cats is hardly ever transitory, and I hope not capricious! Apart from Roger's bugbear ("Fancy that!") I haven't heard fancy used as a verb very much here. "Wherever your fancy leads (or takes) you" is another saying that suggests the absence of serious thinking, and doing something on a whim. And "fancy man" refers to a woman's lover, often a kept man.
DeleteMarty - 'take a fancy to' is certainly used over this side; I've heard 'have a fancy for' but it's not as common. I think the cat/rabbit/pigeon Fancy may be the only context in which Fancy is serious!
DeleteZoe - I'm trying to remember where I read about a jobbing painter travelling the country in the early-to-mid 19th century, painting whatever people wanted, including many fancy portraits; the implication was that social climbers would then present these as ancestral portraits of their distinguished forebears.
Sovay
Dame Eleanor: thank you! I had two blogpages open and picked the wrong link, the one your provide is exactly the one. Totally agree with you, if only there were events requiring a red suit and white gloves. I think the furry animal print bag adds a whole next-level look.
DeleteMarty: I certainly come across 'take a fancy to' in the ways you describe. Interesting that it can be either a brief passing interest, or something more longterm.
But here, definitely 'do you fancy him?' is the classic romantic question.
One of my schoolfriend's mother had a partner (this would be hardly worth mentioning these days, but was very rare in my school) and she very cleverly used to refer to him as 'my mother's fancyman' which got round the whole question, making the situation clear, but also being clear that she didn't need to apologize or explain (again, this was a long time ago). When her mother was going to marry him, we used to say 'now he's her fianceman'! (I don't think any implication that he was a kept man, mind you)
Sovay: the more I think about it the more I can think of modern normal usage of fancy. Even though, at the same time, it can sound a bit deliberately archaic.
DeleteGetting new old relations painted is probably safer than the other option - buying up others' ancestors at auction.
It must have been a good money-spinner for the painter.
Characters called Fancy: I've just remembered the Bobbie Gentry song Fancy. Which is about the romance of becoming a prostitute as a way out of poverty.
DeleteHer mother says to her: 'just be nice to the gentlemen, Fancy, and they'll be nice to you'
There’s also Fancy Day in Hardy’s Under the Greenwood Tree. I think Patricia Wentworth’s Fancy was christened Frances, but as far as I remember Fancy Day is just Fancy.
DeleteAnother advantage of getting your ancestors from the jobbing painter – if he was any good he could probably work a ‘family’ nose or chin or whatever into the fancy portraits, based on his client’s physiognomy.
Re: fancy rodents – I wonder if Fanny Logan’s late mouse Brenda was a fancy mouse?
Sovay
Prostitution (often combined with acting) was a standard way out of poverty. Charles Fox's wife, Elizabeth, had been a courtesan (an upmarket prostitute) and Harriette ("Publish and be damned!") Wilson had several offers from peers, and one of her sisters married a peer. In fiction, Fanny Hill ends up happily married and wealthy and Thomas Hardy's Ruined Maid (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44332/the-ruined-maid) does pretty well in the short term at least.
DeleteOne or two of my replies have been disappeared!
DeleteSovay: I don't remember the detail of Wentworth/Fancy, but your memory is always excellent. And yes of course, Fancy Day. Hardy had some interesting names...
DeleteRoger: I found one of your comments in spam and rescued.
DeleteThe economics of prostitution in (particularly) Victorian times is fascinating. In France, Zola said it was impossible for a young woman who was a shop assistant to survive if she didnt do a little part-time extra.
I love The Ruined Maid - have we discussed it before?
I hope you are proud of the fact that picking on that one word, Fancy, from Uncle Matthew has produced such an incredible amount of comment!
The delicate dance of attraction at school 'my mate fancies your mate'.
DeleteAnd the teasing in the girl group (and doubtless in the boy group but how would I know?) 'Do you fancy him? go on you do, don't you?'
DeleteAlso, when two girls came across two males there was a line: 'I don't fancy yours much' - but this was a joke, I would say, you would only use it when there was zero interest altogether. It was, however, hilariously exquisitely funny to a teenage firl....
We may have discussed The Ruined Maid Before. I've discussed it lately, but I'm not sure where. One of the missing posts involved William Empson's use of ""fancy", which really should have stirred up the comments!
DeleteOh no that definitely hasn't turned up - could you remember and repost? You'd think someone else would have posted on this extremely popular topic 😀😀😀 - surely everyone would have an opinion?
DeleteI can't remember exactly what I said about Empson, but I quoted from
DeleteThe Teasers
Not but they die, the teasers and the dreams,
Not but they die,
and tell the careful flood
To give them what they clamour for and why.
You could not fancy where they rip to blood
You could not fancy
nor that mud
I have heard speak that will not cake or dry.
Our claims to act appear so small to these
Our claims to act
colder lunacies
That cheat the love, the moment, the small fact.
Make no escape because they flash and die,
Make no escape
build up your love,
Leave what you die for and be safe to die.
I am going to have to think about that one. Tease out its meaning one might say. Any help on offer...?
DeleteThe Scottish or maybe just Edinburgh word for something or someone very fancy indeed - fantoush.
DeleteNever heard that, what a beautiful word! I think that makes it an autological word, ie describes itself
DeleteAs Empson's own Collected Poems has more notes than poems, and the Penguin Collected Poems has more notes on the notes...
DeleteA complex man with complex ideas...
DeleteOne of the great eccentrics of the twentieth century
DeleteI've just been looking at his Wikipedia entry (which I remember looking at when we had a previous discussion of him) - its quite opinionated. Space for a (wholly deserved) sideswipe at Winchester College, and details of the condoms found in his college room.
DeleteI always thought Seven Types of Ambiguity was a wonderful title, and remember being excited to find a copy -just the kind of litcrit I enjoyed. And then realizing that he had been younger when he wrote it than I was reading it....
G. H. Hardy suffered like Empson at Winchester some thirty years before. It's a pity Gladys Mitchell didn't know more about some of Winchester's more repellent traditions when she wrote Death and the Maiden. She could have gone to town on it!
DeleteOn the other hand, I liked the story of General Wavell's father talking to the headmaster of Winchester. When the headmaster said it would be a waste of time sending Wavell to university, his father said "Actually, we were thinking of putting him into the army.
"'Good god," said the HM, "He isn't as stupid as that!""
Is he now best known for his poetry anthology, Other Men's Flowers? I suppose he might have found his love of literature at Winchester.
DeleteThe relationship between soldiers and literature can be odd.
DeleteBefore the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, General Wolfe didn't bother with giving his subordinates detailed instructions but read them Gray's Elegy in a Country Churchyard and said "Well, gentlemen, I would rather have written that poem than win the battle tomorrow."
He won the battle and died, but he is remembered as much for his remark as his victory now..
I have been re-reading all the Reginald Hill Dalziel & Pascoe books over the past year, and today I am reading the last one, Midnight Fugue. And just before I saw your comment, someone mentiones General Wolfe to Dalziel and he says ‘The one who’d rather have written Gray’s Elegy than whupped the Frogs, right?’
DeleteQuite the coincidence. It was the kind of thing we learned in history class, the memorable moments school of thought, but I wonder if they wouldn't bother now.
In my last year of primary school, the teacher offered a prize to whomever could memorize the most verses of Gray's Elegy. I won the prize, a leather-bound Victorian edition of his poems, which I cherish to this day, it was the best thing that could have happened to me. I didn't win another prize for a long time after that (till 6th form, when I chose Graham Greene's Travels with my Aunt, also still cherished) but it really was a magic moment for me.
I think I learned about half of it, very useful for quizzes, crosswords, quotation games. Apart from that - I would have read through the whole book, but only the famous ones stuck with me: Eton (talking of miserable schools), the cat that drowned.
Your taste got worse between primary school and the sixth form!
DeleteHa! I disagree. And if I had to pick up one of those books today (for reading, not self-congratulation and remembered joy) it would be Graham Greene. I reread Travels with my Aunt in the early days of the blog (nervous, as one is with a remembered favourite) and absolutely loved it. I did FOUR posts on it, and a fifth in which I tracked down a mention of 'Doris Keane (Keene) in Romance', a reference that turns up in Nancy Mitford also. Nicely obscure. I read the play too which I don't expect has been done much lately.
Deletehttps://clothesinbooks.blogspot.com/2012/10/tracking-down-doris-keane-in-romance.html
Exactly the kind of research/post I most like to do.
When I trained as a journalist we had a House Style Book which included words like inquiry/enquiry, practice/practise, gypsy/gipsy, stationary/stationery, as well as advice on the correct use of adjectives - eg a child’s green bicycle, not a green child’s bicycle (because you cannot have a green child). Also, we could never refer to anyone as a lady unless that was her actual title, in which case she was Lady, with a capital L, followed her name. All other adult females were women.
ReplyDeleteI loved a good style guide myself, and I am reliably informed they still exist. But it was always worth bearing in mind that this was House Style, and not necessarily the last word, or set in stone.
DeleteI think it was the Times that did a story on the singer Meat Loaf, and after the first mention referred to him as Mr Loaf, as was correct according to their guide.
I think if you had got as far as journalism training you should already be able to work out what's wrong with a green child's bicycle!
"I think if you had got as far as journalism training you should already be able to work out what's wrong with a green child's bicycle..." unless you were discussing a fantasy book about goblins.
DeleteI can't think how I didn't think of that for myself
DeleteRegarding words and the class system, the late, great Jilly Cooper wrote a hilarious non-fiction book called Class, updating Nancy Mitford’s pronouncements on U and non-U, with characters such as the Nouveau-Richards, the Stow-Crats and Jen Teale. It includes the terminology used by different classes for things like toilets and serviettes.
ReplyDeleteI loved that book, I bought it the day it came out.
DeleteI think she said herself that it was a mistake to call her low-class couple the Definitely-Disgustings - she meant, she said, that that is what they said all the time, not that they were DD themselves.
Often flashing through my head are her claim that all little girls, no matter what their class, want to look like pageant princesses (not that phrase, can't remember what she said) - obviously not true of every girl, but there is that strong line of truth in it.
And the bohemian aspiring guardian reading woman who has 'A First in history and a fourth in life'
I remember enjoying the book but being jarred by the Definitely-Disgustings, even though IIRC she did explain in a foreword why she’d picked the name. My observations suggest that these days all little girls want to look like fairy unicorns – my local town is always full of them, wearing spangly pastel tulle skirts (often over quite tomboyish top-and-leggings outfits) and iridescent unicorn headbands.
DeleteSovay
Yes, I know she had her reasons, but someone should have told her that it would not sound good!
DeleteYour description of the little girls immediately conjured up a picture, even though I don't know many little girls these days. I do think her perception is still good even if the details change
Oh! Thank you for the recommendation! It's on archive.org . . . I may not get anything done for the rest of the day but I will enjoy myself immensely! (And who knows, I might be able to use it as the basis for some classroom activity, in which case it would count as work after all. I love my job; almost any reading counts somehow.)
DeleteI think you will enjoy it, though allowing for its age, it must have been 1979? She was very funny and observant, and not worried about saying outrageous things. Many educational possibilities I should think.... do report back
DeleteDavid Lodge with a broader brush and less attention to the finer distinctions of academia/Bohemia . . .
DeleteWell - non-fiction, theoretically, and I think she has her moments. I will have to go upstairs now and find my 1st edition!
DeleteEdwin Newman noted in A Civil Tongue, a followup book to his Strictly Speaking, that "there are risks in writing a book in which you find fault with the language of others". He mentioned getting a note from a reader saying "May you survive the precarious position in which you have been placed by your book"!
ReplyDeleteGreat exposition of the dangers! Lovely quotes
DeleteSomewhere I read, and it was probably said by a character in a novel, that things like disinterested for uninterested are becoming 'correct' or at least accepted. I'm not sure if that is true or not.
ReplyDeleteCommas and so on inside or outside quotation marks - I'm a little hazy on that, which is embarrassing.
I think disinterested is tipping over into no distinction, and I think that is actually a shame.
DeletePunctuation and quotation marks - less important. I once got into some discussion where we tried to think of examples where it would actually matter... I think the closest we got was worrying about a 2-question-mark sentence: "Did he ask you 'did you do it?'?" (I don't think anyone would actually print that, though it is surely technically logical)
I worry about the meaning of disinterested being lost too, and I wondered if there are any decent synonyms, so I went to M-W and got a shock! It says that originally, disinterested meant not interested and uninterested meant not biased, and they got switched over the course of a few centuries. But if disinterested now has both meanings, how will you know which meaning is being used in what you hear or read?
DeleteThat is very surprising! I am as shocked as you.
DeleteI think context will normally make it clear, though it still makes me wince a tiny bit when people mistake them.
If a whole sentence is a quote, can't you then put the period inside the quotation marks? I've always thought that with question marks or exclamation points, it's a question of whether the quote itself includes the punctuation, or if the punctuation is in a sentence of your own ending with a quote. Of course, I've been wrong before....
ReplyDeleteYes, in UK usage, the period goes inside the quote if it is a complete sentence, outside if it is not. And the question & exclamation marks go with the correct bit: the inside quote or the outside 'wrapper'. That's why you could end up with double question marks in my comment above.
DeleteLogical punctuation!
After all this discussion, I am unclear on the US position on those "t" words, eg dreamt. But they must have some, as in the popular phrase "Whoever smelt it dealt it". Imagine trying to say that with the "ed" forms! I suppose it comes down to which scans best in the sentence?
ReplyDeleteMy own pet confusion is things like "dove" and "dived", where whichever one I pick for the sentence it feels like the wrong one...
I'm glad you raised the tone with that one! Americans seem to say 'no', but I don't think that's completely the case...
DeleteYes, I sometimes have moments over dive words.
And then there is sneaked and snuck, which many people resisted for a long time ('for purity!' like Iris Storm) but I think has its place now....?
My children, who lived in US for 6 formative years, kept one trace for a long time: they used gotten. Which was of course originally English-English, and has its uses.
PS well done, your remarks have pushed us over the 100 comments linefor this post, always a happy moment
DeleteI noticed in the smelt-and-dealt phrase that although over here, smelt generally means a fish or a step in metal-pocessing, dealt is the accepted past tense for deal. Dealt the cards, dealt a blow...I don't even remember hearing "dealed" used. From Nigel's fashion designs, burned orange would be burnt orange. Burned is used as a verb, as in "the fire burned through most of the forest", but interchangeably with burnt. (Where's the fun in consistency, anyhow?!)
DeleteGood catch on dealt, it is always that isn't it?
DeleteI think the colour is burnt orange here too usually.
As someone said 'consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds' - not the last word on the subject, but a good perception
Glad I could hit that 100 in such an auspicious way!
DeleteI am really curious now why there are these two ways to construct these past tense verbs. An attempt to regularize irregularities maybe.
Your own personal century....
DeleteIt has never occurred to me to wonder why those verbs were formed - a quick look online suggests you are right. The t endings are irregular, and there was a gentle drift into making it more normal
When quoting the review of Nigel's Spring Collection I automatically typed 'burnt orange' initially, that being the name of the colour in my mind - but Nigel's spelling is definitely 'burned'.
DeleteSovay
Thanks - it's interesting isn't it? I think everyone would say burnt orange normally?
DeleteI know 'fancy man' has been discussed above. I have friend who uses the term 'fancy piece' (kind of ironically I think) to refer to a non-official partner, secret girlfriend or mistress. As in 'She's his fancy piece'.
ReplyDeleteOh yes that's excellent!
DeleteOne of my favourite topics: spelling. And grammar. I once worked in an international organisation that required UK spelling and had a boss who had been to the States and therefore was used to US spelling. The discussions we had over misspellings (in his opinion). And then, as I live in Germany, I come across so many wrong spellings on books, T-shirts, even company names when the want to sound "international".
ReplyDeleteI will have to keep a copy of this and re-read it again and again, there are so many thoughts.
All stories welcome - it sounds as though you have a few.
DeleteI was saying to a very old friend that there used to be regular little 'filler' articles in the broadsheet press about all these matters, and we used to love to read them. The response to this makes me think there would still be room for them,,,
I'm pretty sure it would. And I'll think about what else might interest you.
Delete
DeleteFélix Fénéon invented/discovered the "novel in three lines" from "fillers". Some novels might benefit from such treatments,.
Yes please Marianne.
DeleteRoger I had never heard of this but it sounds fascinating.
I am reminded (the three lines... ) of a classic New Statesman competition where you had to tell a story using random book titles:
Arabia Deserta
Ivanhoe
How Green was my Valley.
someone should revive that, I remember it as being very clever and funny
♥
DeleteI just read a weather report which said my area was not "outlooked" for bad storms. Even my computer didn't want to accept that one! I don't remember seeing it before now. Does that make the weather-woman an outlooker? I wonder if that's how "forecaster" came to be, as well. (And "forecast" is another of those words whose past tense often ends with "-t" instead of "-ed". In fact its past tense is usually the same as its present tense!)
ReplyDeleteYes I'd have to swallow hard to accept that one - but perhaps in 50 years people will laugh at the idea that old fogeys didn''t like it...
DeleteI just registered the comment about Bobbie Gentry's song and the "romance of becoming to get out of poverty. Is there really a romantic view of prostitution? I understand about its being a way to make money, and sometimes a necessity in order to survive. But romance, I just don't get. Is it in the sense of being mysterious and adventurous?
ReplyDeleteI was being ironic. The song (like several others in history) implies that she had agency and would otherwise have had a terrible life. That is understandable but not romantic.
DeleteI think the song steers clear of romance until the end, but then - the Georgian mansion and the NY townhouse? The kings, congressmen and aristocrats? Pure romancing in my opinion!
DeleteSovay
On reflection, if Fancy fell in with the 1970 equivalent of Jeffrey Epstein she might have found herself in company with kings, congressmen and aristocrats. But I doubt she’d have ended up rich, happy and in control of her life as a result.
DeleteSovay
I think it was possible, without over-romanticizing it. Some women in that situation did manage to get up, get out get on. (Not many obviously). The women in the Profumo AFfair in the UK did not make much out of it, but they did mix with the high and mighty.
DeleteThere's that song I've Never Been to Me by Charlene- I would say she was clearly drifting on the edges of the respectable side of prostitution, or am I being unfair?
I mentioned her and the song in a post last year, and, memorably, dear Roger (hello!) in High Court Judge mode had to enquire as to who Charlene was. A popular singer, m'lud.
I suppose there are high-class "escorts" who at least dabble in prostitution with the high and mighty. Wasn't there a "society madam" involved in a NYC scandal a while back? And going back to romance, the film Pretty Woman certainly gives the impression that there's at least a chance of true love (and upward mobility) in the oldest profession!
Delete'Society Madam' is an idea the press loves, and who can blame them? Wasn't there one in LA who was supposed to have an address book with 'everyone's' name in, and 'everyone' dreaded its being published? I suppose Ghislaine Maxwell fulfilled the role for Epstein.
DeleteYes Pretty Woman the archetype - and I (like I'm sure many) found it simultaneously unconsciable and enjoyable
btw Marty - the unfathomable blogger did not like your comment and put it in spam! A few trigger words there?
DeleteI've been deaf for many years and never did listen to much popular music. According to Wikipedia, "Charlene.. discouraged by the poor performance of her 1977 Motown releases and by the label's decision not to release a second album she had recorded, had left the music industry and met and married an Englishman, subsequently accompanying him to his native land and taking a job at a sweetshop in Ilford", which suggests life reflected work!
DeleteOh that's hilarious - could easily be a new last verse for the song, I hope she could say 'I have now been to me in the sweetshop' eventually
DeleteI was reminded of another nuance of 'fancy' by a TV advert - one can fancy a racehorse or football team ie pick them as the winners.
ReplyDeleteSovay
And that reminds me of another use - on various daytime TV quiz shows the contestant may have a group of possible topics to answer questions on. I would say it was standard for the host to say 'What do you fancy?' or 'anything in that list you have a fancy for?'
Delete